Xtian HaiKu: “The Nagging Question…”

Nagging Question
If it all weren’t TRUE
Would you really want to know?
If not… then why not?

One person’s response…

“Faith surpasses knowledge in every way. It is the currency of my Father’s Kingdom, by which we ‘buy the truth’ (Prov 23:23)”

Anyone care to bite on this? Either from a Christian perspective or a Deconvert’s? 

If what you have believed and based your life on was suddenly shown to be not really true, would you even want to know? Or would you choose Ignorance instead and retreat back into the ‘safety’ of your beliefs? Tell me in the comments below.

-kia

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84 thoughts on “Xtian HaiKu: “The Nagging Question…”

  1. Ok Kia,
    I don’t believe I’m responding to this question as there’s really not much else that can be added to desiring to know the truth if Christianity, Christ Jesus, Yahweh Elohim, Holy Spirit all weren’t true.

    Liked by 1 person

      • Ah!
        As I said over there: Essentially, you’re asking “at what point does the being who have always existed, ceased to exist.”
        If God is an uncreated being, then there is no response to who created God and where He came from.

        How is anyone going to answer such an odd question.

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        • Essentially, you’re asking “at what point does the being who have always existed, ceased to exist.”

          Nope. I didn’t ask that. I’m asking where God came from.

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          • You’re asking His origins.
            He has none. He always was, He is, and He always will be.

            I know it’s mindboggling to think of within the confines of what we’ve always known – the constraints of time (ie. a beginning and an end.)

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              • Faith is based on knowledge. You cannot have faith in someone without knowing them.
                You believe Jesus because you know Him to be real and true to His word. i.e. you have faith in His authority and dependability as God.

                Even scripture defines faith as ‘knowing’.
                Without faith it’s impossible to please God. And faith is – knowing that God exists,

                As Mrs. O says – a person’s word is their bond. God is bounded by His word, and that is one reason we trust and have faith in Him, because He is real, true, and dependable. i.e. He exists.

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              • We seem to have gotten far afield of the original… “in the beginning, god created” where did god come from, and followed up by how do you “know” that vs just “believe” that by Faith?
                I submit that you can’t know… and your ‘trust’ is more than reliance on known, verifiable and testable facts. You no more “know” god and have relationship with him than you do with my grandmother.

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      • I imagine God was where He has always been before the physical manifestation of time and space – i.e. He has always existed in the non-physical eternal realm.

        Liked by 1 person

        • “I imagine”? Why do you have to imagine?
          Since you don’t think you are a lazy thinker… why not “think”? If time or space didn’t exist yet, ‘where’ was god ‘before’ he created the Heavens and the earth? And since Christians like som are so fond of saying faith and scientific discovery go hand in hand, then how would you a discover or support the existence of a non physical realm?

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          • Imagination is a crucial part of thinking Kia.
            If God created time and space, critical thinking would suggest He obviously does not exist within the physical limitations/constraints of time of space – He created time and space.

            The spiritual realm is dimensions above our 4 physical dimensions that we can see (length, width, height, and time,) and electromagnetism -which we cannot see, but we can observe its effects.

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              • I know because He said so. His Holy Spirit – the spirit of wisdom also bore testimony to this I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or before the earth ever was. … see Proverbs 8 for full account

                If the Creator didn’t tell us, it would be impossible for us to know.

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              • The main reason I stress so heavily the reality of Jesus – His divinity, his humanity is He bears witness to the truth.

                Jesus, the Son of God, the very Word of God who could have used any word He wished to chose to quote over and over again from Scripture. It is written, It is written.
                If God had a problem with the “words written by men”; He would have known whether or not they’re of Him and His Father.
                His willingness to continuously quote from Scripture is enough for me.

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              • Not the same men.
                Scripture is written over a roughly 3500 year period by roughly 40 different people in 3 languages. Most did not know each other.

                Liked by 1 person

              • While I knew what you meant, what you said gave the impression that the same men somehow did.
                My goal was to clear this up before proceeding.

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              • So… to get back on track, the same ‘men’ wrote the words of jesus quoting approvingly the words of ‘men’ quoting god and the ot

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              • hmm… okay… if that’s how you view it…
                let’s move on… or if there’s more you wanted to make from this, please go ahead.

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              • So… how do you ‘know’ any of them, writers of the OT or nt, wrote the Truth from God and not just words of men’s religion or tribal myth and Tradition? I mean how do you ‘know’ or is it really based in Faith ultimately?

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              • Kia, everything in life is based on faith.
                All faith is, is simply trust based on knowledge.
                Your spouse has faith in you because they know you.
                A stranger will not exhibit that same amount of faith in you because they do not know you.

                Likewise, we place faith in God’s word because of who He is…who we know Him to be.
                We place faith in science because we believe there is something to be discovered, and so we search.

                The pitting of science against religion is very short-sighted and unwise.

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              • We trust gravity because it is repeatable and evidenced, something that can be relied on regardless of bias or belief or non belief. Faith in trust, regardless and often just spite of lack of evidence.

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              • Interesting example – gravity.
                No one knows what it is exactly – including you and I. Yet, as you’ve correctly pointed out we’ve placed our faith/trust in its effects.

                Thank God and those in aeronautics, that the law of gravity, although factual is not completely relied on.
                That the law of lift and thrust supersedes the law of gravity. [There’s a great spiritual message here Kia].

                Can you see God physically? No.
                Can you see His effects all around? Absolutely Yes.

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              • Only if you interpret those effects as from a God. Gravity is a test able effect and they can prove the root. The God of the bible has to be circularly inferred… Bias

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              • So while you have Faith that the god of the Bible existed before time and space, and that he created everything, you have no solid or testable evidence that it is True. You trust what you cannot prove as solid fact. That is Faith, but it is not the same trust as we place on things in the real world.

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              • The word of God is evidence Kia. God said, I did it, by Me all things were made.
                That’s evidence.
                So far, no one can come up with an alternative to who did it.
                Yes, atheists and others have tried and failed miserably in their incoherence of how this universe came to be.

                So while you take your manufacturers handbook and throw it way, then go on the internet looking for speculation, your life slowly ebbs away.

                I’ve weighed the evidence and found it convincing and because I know God, I value and trust His word as truth.

                You’ve weighed the evidence and found it lacking. Coupled with the fact that you do not know God, and have no desire to know Him.

                “You trust what you cannot prove as solid fact”
                I hate to break it to you, but isn’t that what science is based on. Scientists must make assumptions (many of which cannot be proven) in order to carry out the scientific method (there you go, faith in something that cannot be proven – why – in the pursuit of truth).
                And as you know, hypotheses can never be proven true.

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              • If the god of the Bible is not physical, not in our reality, not detectable and we can only Trust what men have written that he ‘told’ them to write, then we don’t really ‘know’, we believe by sheer Faith alone.

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              • The God of the Bible is Spiritual – not physical.
                He is indeed in our reality.
                He is detectable.
                We can trust what He’s said about Himself. He was here in human-form you know.
                He interacted with beings just like you and me.

                I take it by this standard you believe nothing in history, since history is hardly ever autobiographical.

                What you’re doing is trying to establish that religion is based on faith.
                Yes, it’s based on trust and reality.

                And that science is not – well here is where you’re very wrong.
                It’s impossible to conduct science without faith. Otherwise what’s the point of pursuing discoveries if one lacks the faith that there is something to be discovered.
                You may also want to consider a crucial limitation of science – that while science can tell us how something is done, it can never say why it’s done.

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              • Faith is based on trust and reality.
                You place your faith in something that is true and real. That is, something that actually exists!

                We trust God because He is true and real and is true to His word.

                So, the first part of your statement is correct. The second part incorrect.

                Without faith it’s impossible to please God. And faith is – knowing that He [God] exists!

                This is not about wishing or wanting or hoping, but actually knowing

                God willing, I’ll address the other points tomorrow.

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              • Just because you trust or have faith in someone or sometuing does not make that someone or something real. Pleas3 demonstrate the reality of the existence of the god of the Bible without faith or the bible, or emotion or experiences (the last two are open to bias and the first two are circular)?

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              • Are you telling me that you have managed to placed your faith and trust in something or someone that doesn’t exist?
                Interesting.

                “Please demonstrate the reality of the existence of the God of the Bible…”

                Get a mirror, hold it up in front of you. Breathe on the glass.

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  2. For instance if the the truth was there is no God, then I don’t want to know the truth because faith is central to my life and gives me strength and hope. But therein lies a paradox because I would need to know the truth to not want to know the truth. So in the end, I would rather not know the truth because ignorance is bliss and as long as I lead a fulfilling life without harming others, I should be okay in the end of the day 🙂

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      • Unlike us, some people cannot be comfortable with the fact that they may never “know.” They find their solace in science, the known and the explained. In a way, that becomes their faith and then they are not too different from us. They have the faith that science one day will provide all answers. Their faith is differently placed from mine but nevertheless similar 🙂

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        • I think the difference is that people of science are betternoff that those of faith who doggedly try to tie their Faith into ‘knowledge’. At lease trusting in science leads to continued questions and the hope of answers one would never have come to. All Faith does is keep you from asking those questions and not really caring about the answers because one already ‘knows’

          Liked by 1 person

  3. Kia: We seem to have gotten far afield of the original… “in the beginning, god created” where did god come from, and followed up by how do you “know” that vs just “believe” that by Faith?
    I submit that you can’t know… and your ‘trust’ is more than reliance on known, verifiable and testable facts. You no more “know” god and have relationship with him than you do with my grandmother.”

    Asking the same question numerous times will not get you numerous answers but the same answer.

    Where does God come from?
    If God has always been, i.e. He has always existed, this is not a thoughtful question for an adult. This should be a settled question for an adult. For a child – absolutely. I used to ponder this endlessly when I was younger.
    How is it that when it comes to mathematics everyone pretends to understand the concept of infinity; but let’s talk about God and the concept of eternity, and suddenly the mind becomes blocked and such a concept is now unfathomable.

    By definition God has to be self-existing, uncreated, eternal, personal being. That’s why He’s God!

    How do I “know” vs just “believe” by faith.
    The reality is, you must know something in order to believe it.
    You can choose to ignore what “faith” really is by continuously substituting your incorrect definition. This accomplishes nothing except for confusion and wrong ideas.

    Let’s say you have 2 kids that you made the same promise to – “I’ll take home a bike for you next Sat.”
    One child is very excited, even though they haven’t received the bike as yet – but this child knows you, knows you keep your promises, and so the have faith and trust in the words you say. They know you will keep your word.

    The other child, is not excited at all, and says, “I’ll believe it when I see it.”

    What’s the difference?
    The first child knows you and therefore believes you. Faith is born out of knowing/knowledge, out of relationship, out of trust. It’s that simple.
    Once again – without faith it is impossible to please God. And faith is – what is faith Kia? – faith is knowing – in this case what does one need to know – they must know that God exist!

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    • Sorry for the delayed response. The difference is… I don’t have to know. It’s you who’ve been asked the question how you know. Me? I have the luxury of one of the most honest answers I know.
      So again, how do you ‘know’ where God was before he created the heaven and the earth?

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      • No need for apologies. I imagine everyone has a life away from their device of choice.

        Kia, if you don’t have to know; and based on our conversation you also don’t care to know; then what exactly is the point of asking the question.
        It certainly cannot be for my purpose – to ascertain whether or not I know – as I’ve already answered the question.

        One more time – no one can possibly know unless the Creator tells it to them. And He did. And what did the Creator tell us Kia?
        See Genesis, Proverbs, John
        You can also read this wonderful little book by a great mentor: The Articles of Configuration. The Genesis Project. What Happened Before Genesis Began.

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        • Not knowing and not caring to know are two different things. You put words in my mouth that I have not said and don’t believe.
          I do care to know, it’s just I refuse to call belief and faith the same as knowledge. They just arent

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          • You are correct; they’re two different things. You’ve displayed both, unfortunately.

            Belief, faith/trust is based on knowledge.
            You cannot believe what you don’t know. Or to put it another way – you can only believe what you know.

            Usually when Jesus told someone – great is your faith… or your faith has made you whole… or I have not seen such great faith… etc.
            what exactly was He talking about?

            It was what these people knew about Jesus that caused them to have great faith.
            The strength of your faith is in direct relation to what you know to be true.

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  4. Kia: I submit that you can’t know… and your ‘trust’ is more than reliance on known, verifiable and testable facts. You no more “know” god and have relationship with him than you do with my grandmother.”

    Well, you’re wrong in asserting that I or anyone else cannot know. As the apostle John wrote – these things are written that you may know .
    You can choose not to know Kia, but I choose to know.

    Your last line made me laugh. Thanks.
    Well, you’re correct I do not know your grandmother, and therefore could not have had a relationship with her in order to establish faith/trust. However, I do know that she must have existed because here you are ‘speaking’ to me.
    Similarly, I know God exists because I can see all the works of His hands, including myself. I also know that Christ Jesus is His Son, who not only left the heavens but chose to come in human form in this very planet we call earth, right on a patch of land in the mid-east. This is a verifiable fact Kia.
    And this is why it’s impossible to deny God exists…because we all know Jesus exists.
    Yes, I get it and know many will still insist He doesn’t and ask for additional proof upon all they’ve been given, but none of that changes the facts.
    Christ Jesus is real, God is real. They do exist!

    As mentioned on CS’ blog, there are many witnesses to this fact/truth.
    John the Baptist bore witness to who Jesus is – behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
    God the Father bore witness to who Jesus is – this is My beloved Son, in whom I AM well pleased.
    Jesus’ works bore witness to who He is – if you won’t believe Me for who I say I AM, at least believe Me for the works that I do.
    on and on.

    The reality is, it’s very easy to tell when a believer actually knows and have a relationship with God, Kia.

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    • If I may insert a comment here … you “know” because this is what you’ve been taught. And you “believe” because of scriptures that you have been told are “truth.”

      But if you were born in a land where the Christian God and his son Jesus are unknown, your “knowing” would be invalid.

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      • and you know this how? – you have no idea what I have or have not been taught. You cannot know unless I tell it to you.

        Is your knowledge limited to only the things that you’ve been taught?

        This invalidates your last sentence. Coupled with the fact that there are many “born in areas where the Christian God and His Son Jesus are unknown” who still know there is a God. They may not know Him by name, but they know a Creator of the universe exist.

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        • OK, let’s generalize things. PEOPLE know things primarily because of what they have been taught…or what someone they respect has told them. This is typical human behavior. Babies are born knowing nothing … it is only through time (and usually parental direction) that they come to know the world.

          Your comment that there are some “who still know there is a God” is just as general as my original statement. You don’t know this anymore than I do. Furthermore, there is no evidence to back up your last sentence.

          I have no qualms with the fact that you believe in the bible and God and Jesus. That’s your prerogative. What does bother me is when you … or any Christian … makes the general statement that “it’s impossible to deny God exists.”

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          • Okay… So generalizing, you’re an atheist because you have been taught that God does not exist…hmm.

            You’re wrong in asserting there is no evidence to back up my last sentence. In any functioning society and outside of the incoherent atheistic worldview, a person’s word does and still counts as evidence in a court of law. So there’s plenty of evidence to back up my statement.

            Likewise, I agree it is your prerogative not to believe in the Bible, God, and Jesus.
            And, you are free to use my caveat that many will still insist and deny the existence of God. We’ll eventually know how much good that does.
            I think what bothers you is the certainty/confidence of a Christian in knowing that a God, the Creator of the universe exist and the fact that they’re unafraid and unashamed to say it.
            Why would anyone deny or cast doubt on what they know to be true?

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            • It is NOT generalizing when you write: you’re an atheist. If you had written “a person is an atheist because …”, then you would have been generalizing.

              You simply cannot say, “They may not know Him by name, but they know a Creator of the universe exist.” as a FACT because you don’t know every single person that exists on this planet and what they think/believe.

              You’re making a rather large assumption about me when you write: “I think what bothers you is the certainty/confidence of a Christian in knowing that a God, the Creator of the universe exist and the fact that they’re unafraid and unashamed to say it.” — especially since we’ve never met. In actual fact, I have no problem with your certainty/confidence. That’s your prerogative. What I do have a problem with is when you make general statements and claim them as fact/truth. They may be fact to you, but they are NOT fact to those who either don’t believe in the Christian God OR (especially) to those who have never heard of your god.

              (BTW, just because I write against the Christian God does not necessarily mean I’m an atheist.)

              Liked by 1 person

              • LOL at how defensive you’ve become… to the point of correcting my grammar. This is really hilarious and very telling 🙂
                All I did was personalize from the generalization pool.

                Your second paragraph is redundant because I never stated it was everyone on the planet; my statement was with regard to those who know there is a God, a creator of the universe, who do not know Him by name.
                {This is a classic example of incoherence… generalize when it benefits you,… then no, no, you cannot generalize as you don’t know what everyone thinks… meh.

                Your third paragraph is also redundant. You’re claiming I’m making a large assumption, after I already admitted this is what “I think”.

                You certainly seemed to have no problem earlier making general statements and claiming them as fact…
                Whether or not you’re an atheist is your business.

                Truth is independent of you and I. My goal is to be on the side of Truth.

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              • No, not defensive. But I am a “word person” so I probably look more closely than most at what a person “says” rather than what that person “means.”

                And if I was redundant, it’s because it seemed to me you weren’t “getting it.”

                Nevertheless, I think we’re at a draw. You believe for your reasons, I don’t believe for mine … “and never the twain shall meet.” 😉

                Have a great weekend.

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              • Look in the mirror. You don’t know that God was before the creation. You have faith in what is written in the bible so you believe he was. Not Knowledge

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              • LOL…
                How do you know that I don’t know.
                That’s a very odd statement.
                It’s fair to say that you Kia do not know.
                But to say because you do not know, that no one else therefore cannot know is a contradiction – to be nice 🙂

                If you don’t know, how can you know that I don’t know or that I cannot know?

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  5. Kia: “Nan, in his view.. Anyone not believing and serving the True God ™ ie. His God, is an atheist by definition”

    Now why would you do that Kia when I’m right here. All you have to do is ask for my definition of an atheist instead of giving one to me. I reject it of course.

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      • So Kia, because a gentleman is unable to fully articulate his belief in God for whatever reasons, you and these fellows pat yourselves on the back thinking your scoffing and mockery somehow make you guys the purveyors of reality.
        Think again, my friend. There is a whole other world out there apart from this physical/material reality that you know.
        I said earlier, no one knows what gravity is… neither do they know what energy is… and even consciousness… etc. so before you guys start congratulating yourselves on your ‘cleverness’… you might want to think more deeply about the things you can perceive but cannot see.

        Like

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