One more time… ugh!

For someone that is continuing to play the Strawman…

Both Atheism and Agnosticism attempt to answer the same question: “Is there or are there a god or gods?”

  • Agnosticism answers… “I don’t Know.” That’s what the term literally means.
  • Atheism answers… “I don’t believe. Convince me with Evidence.”

Neither of these two positions makes any claim for knowledge, exhaustive or not. So posting childish and intentionally dishonest memes about supposed Know-it-Alls who claim to know for certain that God or gods do not exist is not only a brainless Strawman Fallacy, but it’s also an unfair and adolescent attempt to shift the burden of proof from your Positive Claim that a god, not just any old god, but the God of the Bible exists.

To which both the Agnostic and the Atheist would say… “Convince me with Evidence, not Strawmen or Arguments from Ignorance or Incredulity. Evidence. 

So instead of focusing time, energy and Brain Power on mischaracterizing those who disagree with you, do the HONEST thing and provide some Evidence for your Positive Claim. We’re listening.

-kia

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37 thoughts on “One more time… ugh!

  1. Although I am one who maintains that there is one True God, and that He is eminently knowable, I have to give your post a “like.” Of late, we have both seen too much of posturing which lacks much critical thinking. I am embarrassed by a lot of it, and much more importantly, it does not reflect accurately on the One whom the perps claim to represent.

    But I would suggest that the honest remedy for this is to stop seeking out the low-hung fruit, and to reach higher. There is a great deal of higher criticism with plenty of substance to sunk one’s teeth into, readily available. There is a world of challenging apologetic–don’t mistake the clowns for the real thing.

    Be well. I know my comment is likely to encourage responses, but I will remain silent. Thanks.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Responses, yes, but any reasonable agnostic or atheist should respond very positively, like I’m doing here. A knee-jerk defensive reaction to someone else’s beliefs is all too common for believers and non-believers alike and this is why an understanding and acceptance is so rarely achieved. Despite my doubts, I devour books on Christian apologetics, comparative religion, etc., because dropping one’s preconceptions and exploring without prejudice opens up a fascinating world of mankind’s various beliefs and cultures. And though I tend to remain skeptical on the more supernatural elements, I always come away with new wisdom.

      Liked by 4 people

  2. Considering that all good, true Christians get their information from the church – the one, true source for all answers, it shouldn’t be a surprise that so much misinformation and disinformation exists all over the place. Christian authors, though, tend to confuse the terms, make up what they want, and knock down their own straw-men, so it shouldn’t be uncommon to see devout believers being all over the place on the definition of atheist and agnostic. That way, a studied Christian can be sure that they’re absolutely right about everything.

    Liked by 1 person

    • My issue with the dishonesty of it all is that peop,etc like James, Wally, cs, ib, som, and ufuomaee all have access and seeming working knowledge that contradicts what they believe and say, yet they will continue to push it and bully others who try to correct their intentional mischaracterizing

      Like

      • Unfortunately it’s a bit of a safety zone to see things in that light. When I stopped thinking in terms of black and white (there’s grey!), right or wrong (it’s complicated), good or evil (sometimes it’s both), then my mind opened up to a world full of shades and hues of meaning and possibilities that I used to live without. But Christianity makes it easy to push everything into an us vs them zone where you’re so busy fighting the never-ending battle you can’t see that the war is over and done.

        Liked by 1 person

        • It’s just mind boggling the types of squirming dishonesty one has to go thru to ‘defend’ the indefensible. Even trying to pin them down in what is and is not christianity consistent with the biblical teaching. In order to escape the logical conclusions of believing these things, they run away to LA LA land or just deny what is clearly taught.

          Like

          • Once I learned how different people interpret scriptures, I learned that “clearly taught” is a matter of perspective. My friends at The Head-Covering Movement believe the Bible clearly teaches that all women must wear hats or shawls or some sort of head covering. Other Christians read the same verse and believe that wearing a wedding ring fulfills the same function. You can interpret the Bible to both be “for” something and “against” that very same thing, depending on how creative you feel.

            Liked by 1 person

        • Or they will admit that it’s not true in any historical or verifiable or archaeological way… but they ‘believe’ anyway because it gives their lives purpose and meaning. Reality is always preferable to Fiction

          Like

  3. Mike, you keep asking for absolute proof that God exists…and this proof won’t become evident until one is truly graced by God with salvation…and filled with the Holy Spirit by God Himself…

    The scripture is clear…”For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (NKJV)

    It is all God’s work, and God’s perfect timing… We aren’t born Christians… We aren’t saved from our sins as an infant, that MUST go through baptism, or risk not entering heaven, like the Catholics believe… My nephew (a Catholic) told me he was “born again” when he was baptised as an infant…

    We aren’t Christians because our parents were Christians, and went to church every week, or because we wanted to become a Christian… This penned by the apostle John…

    John 1:12-13… But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (NKJV)

    We become Christians when God draws us in (John 6:44), and the Holy Spirit changes our will to understand we are sinners who, cannot save ourselves… No amount of good works done in the name of the Lord will get us into heaven…

    Ephesians 2:8-9… For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (NKJV)

    And this, spoken by Jesus, in…Matthew 7:21-23… “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (NKJV)

    We become Christians when a pastor (or a servant of the Lord, like me), shares the Gospel of Christ, which is called the general call… Romans 10:14-17… How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (NKJV)

    When the general call of the Gospel, is heard with ears to hear, and planted in the 4th soil…the hearer obeys the Gospel of Christ with a heart already regenerated by God, because they have been called with an effectual call, which cannot be rejected… Here is a link which goes into detail on the effectual or irresistible call… https://www.gotquestions.org/effectual-calling-call.html

    Ladies and gentleman, this effectual call includes our believing with saving faith in Christ… Our part is to believe with ALL of our heart, mind, and soul (not possible until God gives us the will to obey the Gospel)…

    This is truly a mystery, even to me…as to why I was received into God’s family… But none the less…we as true born again believers, have 100% assurance we are God’s redeemed child, because the Holy Spirit tells our spirit that we have received God’s grace (Romans 8:15-16)…

    You keep asking…I keep sharing what Christ has commanded me to share, the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ… in His last spoken words before ascending into heaven to sit at His Father’s right hand… Matthew 28:19-20…

    Here is my presentation of the Gospel… http://godsmanforever.com/2014/10/26/the-truth-about-sin-10262014-by-bruce-reposted-from-7112013/

    Have a great day people !!

    bruce

    Like

    • Bruce, if it is all God’s work then it is up to God to draw Mike and I.

      Given that we diligently tried to follow the faith for decades then what more could we do?

      If God does exist and it is all his work then I will wait for him to do something.

      But the Bible says ‘all who seek find’. Mike and I sought, but we did not find!

      Liked by 3 people

      • Peter, more correctly… we ‘found god’ for decades, even introduced others to Him, but eventually woke up to the facts that th3 god of the Bible and Jesus portrayed in the nt were cultural and religious myths with no basis in actual reality.
        We found… just broke free of the delusion.

        Liked by 1 person

      • It doesn’t. It addresses his need for confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. With a side of self reassurance. Mind control techniques of reviewing the tape in his head to ward of truth and reality

        Liked by 1 person

          • Spiders, it would be if it were a Muslim trying to prove the koran by the koran. But cs just doesn’t see the circularity when it comes to him doing the same thing… Proving the bible by the bible.

            Liked by 1 person

              • To the true believer their Holy Book is almost like magic and so they see the words as having power and containing ultimate wisdom.

                Thus when the Bible says that everyone secretly knows there is a God, they accept this as fact. Thus they also accept that it not lack of evidence that is the real problem, but it rather an excuse. They accept the Bible when it says it is a rebellious heart which is the real problem of humanity.

                So when it comes to evidence, folk like CS and Bruce conclude that this is not the critical matter, rather they see the critical matter is put a finger on our rebellion against ‘God’. So in essence we are talking a separate language.

                This is why I attempt to point out reasons why the Bible could not be a divine book. As that is the key to the whole interchange. When I pointed out flaws in the perfect book to CS he did not give a straight answer, as usual.

                But it took me many years to be prepared to explore the possibility that the Bible might not be a divine book. So I hope that over time the cognitive dissonance will cause others to question.

                CS tells us to look to the world around us for evidence, as this is what the Bible says. He sees a beautiful and ordered earth as evidence of creation. Anything bad is said to be the result of sin. But when I look at the world around us I conclude that if there is a creator, that creator is at a distance and is indifferent to the everyday lives of humanity. Certainly that creator is not the God of the Bible as science has shown that the creation stories in the Bible are wrong.

                Liked by 3 people

    • “Mike, you keep asking for absolute proof that God exists…and this proof won’t become evident until one is truly graced by God with salvation”

      So, absolute proof doesn’t exist unless you choose to believe first. That’s awesome, now explain how that is in any way logical, reasonable and honest!

      Liked by 1 person

      • Bruces argument is that it is the authenticating power of the Holy Spirit.

        But Bruce also argues that it ‘God’ who chooses those who will be ‘graced’ with salvation, so it is over to God I suppose.

        I mean to say it is not as though many of us did not spend years trying to believe. So what does that say about God?……Well my answer is, it says that the God we tried to believe in is not there…or is of questionable character..

        Liked by 2 people

      • Limey, obviously… You must believe first, then proof will no longer matter. And no amount of contrary evidence will either. Once we are prepared to believe literally anything on Faith first, what would you not be able to justify in belief, practice or behavior at God’s say so?

        Liked by 1 person

  4. Pingback: Hmm, I know how I feel. | Disabled Thoughts

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