My Journey pt 10: The Question, “Why?”

Some people just like questions 

From a thread over on Wallys blog post on Worship. I admit freely here that when he posted a Meme stating that Worship isn’t about discovering who we are, but about discovery who God is, my first comment from a former christian/minister/worship leader’s perspective probably came off a bit harsh and offensive.

KIA

September 25, 2016 at 13:00

Reply

The old jesus people song by maranatha rings in my ears as I read this. “Let’s forget about ourselves…”
It’s a mass self hypnosis/brainwashing activity designed to negate your individual identity and value. And to think I used to lead worship

Good memories of a wonderfully simple worship song, followed by a sharp ‘Ouch’

Then I got a curious question of why I ‘apostasized’ and what caused me to finally ‘defect’? I thought I had done enough damage, not only to the silly meme, but also perhaps to Wally’s original post and even my own self respect, having somewhat unfairly jabbed. 

KIA

September

Don’t want to hijack Wally’s post. You can read and comment on my blog if you like. I’ll answer any question you want to ask as honestly as I can

My efforts to respectfully decline answering the Spaniard’s questions only brought the kind of abuse that was the answer to what finally pushed me over the edge further towards deconversion. 

KIA
September 26, 2016 at 09:23
But honestly Spaniard, Wallys response to me in this thread is part of what motivated me to ask even more questions and uncover the answers I didn’t expect to find. This video describes similar treatment I received last year as I tried to ask questions both here and on a different blog you might also frequent. I was still holding on to my faith by a thread, but some people seem not to be willing to explore or think beyond their own understanding. Watch the video and tell me what you think on my blog please.

If you are still interested in why I left the Faith I knew, loved and trusted after 34 years, it was Answers that I wasn’t supposed to learn, Evidence that what I believed, trusted and ‘knew’ about the Bible, history and science was simply not true, and also Evidence about science history, archaeology, and christianity that WAS true. The final push out the Chapel doors, the ‘Left Foot’ versus the Right Hand of Fellowship as we say, was administered both at Wally’s blog and at another person’s named James.

I hope this helps. Please watch the video all the way thru and read some of the other posts I have here at the Recovering Know It All. And thank you for still asking questions. 

-kia

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82 thoughts on “My Journey pt 10: The Question, “Why?”

  1. @mike.
    I’m going to do you a favor and offer one comment. One. This one. Feel free to enjoy the soon hyena fest to follow with your new kin, but this buds for you. You said this:

    ‘The final push out the Chapel doors, the ‘Left Foot’ versus the Right Hand of Fellowship as we say, was administered both at Wally’s blog and at another person’s named James.’

    Now then. I have told you that I have watched your interchanges in times past with these men. You have used your dissatisfaction with these men to cloak your rebellion against God and scripture. Am I sure? Uh, yeah.

    If it was not Wally and James, it would have been Kate and Debby, if not them, Larry and Harry, or Victor and Vito.. Fact is, you needed someone to blame for your disappointment of your ‘christian life.’ King David did not blame God for his poor judgment. Adam tried to blame his wife, but that was lame. You blaming other believers is far worse, because you have more information at your disposal.

    God is perfect, His word blameless, and we? Eh, not so perfect. That said, let me repeat. I have watched your feigned conversations as you tried to spin your tales. But be a man and do not blame others for your deconnery. Take responsibility, but do not blame God, his word, or other people.

    The same word that you detest is the same word that brings joy to others. It’s all a matter of the heart, been saying it for ages. But the greater question: what will you then say when you see the daylight and realize that God has not moved………..but you have……..

    (History, science, and the bible not true……………..please)

    ………..don’t ask for a follow up. One comment.

    Liked by 3 people

    • ‘God is perfect’

      The God of the Bible does not exist. The proof of this is in the Bible itself. The authors of the Bible were human and lacked consistency and at times portrayed their made up God in a very human and flawed manner.

      Just one story, from 2 Samuel when God tempts David to take a census and then kills thousands of people as a result shows that God is not perfect even as portrayed in the Bible.

      The problem that Christians have is that they start with the idea that God is perfect and then excuse all of God’s imperfect actions as a result.

      Go through the Bible and count how many people God directly kills then compare that to the number of people Satan directly kills.

      Read Numbers 31, God is portrayed there as having worse standards than even ISIS.

      The Christian narrative on God is based on doctrine not on reality.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Exactly. And you’ll never get a straight answer why god was ok with killing the infant born by David and bathsheba’s adultry, but spared David the punishment of death for adultry and murder

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  2. Unfortunately, I can’t watch the video at work because the disable any video content. Hopefully I’ll find some spare time in the next few days. I don’t know that you consider yourself an atheist, or just someone who has rejected Christianity, but I love reading comments made by the likes of Wally who accuse people of slandering Christianity because they “hate God”. For someone like me, who is an atheist and an anti-theist, it’s the stupidest thing I could possibly be accused of. I guess I could also be accused of hating Tinkerbelle and tooth fairies too.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Wally, james, and the lot really don’t understand the damage they are doing. They really don’t care either. They just want to shut down the questions and answers that may lead off the reservation. My Journey pt 3 is a post that might also clarify.
      Thx for reading and commenting. Also… i love what you write also.

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      • I just finished replying to Wally on his blog. It’s in moderation right now because I am a first time commenter on his site. For now, I will trust that he will approve it an respond to it. I have taken a screen shot of it in the event that he doesn’t.
        I think that people like Wally and Jonathan do more to damage their own faith than they realize. By using dishonest, disingenuine tactics, that appeal only to the most severely brainwashed, deluded and fundamental of Christians (aka the John B’s and the mrsmcmommy’s), they alienate the more tolerant and curious of believers who are interested in learning about their faith and religion and are genuinely curious to know why there are no 1st century contemporary non biblical sources for their deity or why they may have been brainwashed into thinking that Christianity is the real deal, etc, etc.
        Thank you for the compliment. I feel that I write better when provoked (i.e. responses on other’s blogs) rather than making my own posts on my own blog.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Hostility and abuse towards people who question and honestly ask ‘for the reason for the hope within them’ is a sure sign of either ignorance of how to respond, or insecurity in their own grasp of what and why they believe

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  3. Hello KIA,
    First I would like to say that Yahweh and Allah are not the same God. Allah in the Qur’an has titles that belong to Satan in the Bible.
    I watched 12 minutes of the video and I think that the person speaking in the video has a presupposition on his misunderstanding on sin, God’s righteousness, redemption and love for humanity. Its hard to understand the character of God when one doesn’t understand the consequences of sin or evil in the world. For starters, logically speaking, nothing can create something just put it to the test and you will get nothing regardless of time. God is holy and righteous and we are under the creators rules. His rules are based on His character which is love. Nothing unclean meaning sin can be with Him and as a righteous God sin has to be punished. We see this today by sending criminals to jail and even though it is not fire but they suffer inwardly and mentally. Why God sends people to Hades? God never made Hell for people it was created for Satan and his fallen angels because they chose to rebel against God and sinned. Once Adam sinned men were now going there because punishment for sin is Hell. Why Hell? The Bible doesn’t say why it has to be fire but I can give you my opinion according to reading and studying scripture closely. Men’s spirit came from within God and since God is eternal we are eternal. Sin has to be punished and in Hell sin is being punished and since will live eternally we get punished eternally. Now just because we don’t understand Hell as being the appropriate punishment doesn’t make it untrue. Hell is so serious and God loves us so much that He sent His Son to get the punishment we deserve upon Himself which is death so that grace could it offered. Jesus died in our place, was buried and on the third day rose from the grave in victory to show the human race of His love that He was willing and did give up His life for us. Imagine a father who sees his son in danger. A bear is charging the boy and the boy’s father grabs his son and tells him to run. The father confronts the bear so that his son as a chance to escape to safety. In the process the father dies but he dies knowing that his son will live, that is true love. Imagine what type of man he will grow up to be a man who will love his neighbors. The atheist believe in survival of the fittest who excludes self sacrifice. I’m not saying that’s you KIA but that is their model to live by. I have strong testimonies of what God did for me and I have actually seen demons walking in my house. I have witness the spiritual realm with my own eyes which strengthens my faith even further not that I needed it to obtain faith because faith comes from Jesus but it shows me the reality of darkness working against God to blind the eyes of people so that they won’t believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

    Liked by 1 person

      • I know but it has a lot of misinformation that I endured as much as possible. I think that video was pretty bad concerning scripture. It was like listening to a person talking about engines without ever understanding how it works. There was a lot wrong conclusions in the video but I will finish watching the remaining 8 minutes

        Liked by 1 person

          • I have read some of the Qur’an. I know the Qur’an denies Jesus dying on the cross, being the Son of God and being God. I know the Qur’an gets the trinity wrong as God Father, Son and Mary. Muhammad didn’t know the Bible very well since he got lots wrong. The Qur’an purpose was to destroy Christianity.

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              • Mohammed claimed that Islam is a continuation of the abrahamic faith. Same god, different name, as the god of the ot Abraham, and the nt jesus.
                Although in reality, and unknown to Muslims, Allah was the local tribal god of the area Mohammed lived in.
                But if you ask Muslims, they are going to tell you that Allah is the god of the ot Abraham and their branch of faith follows thru Ishmael vs Issac.
                Therefore, rightly said, judaism, christianity and Islam are said to be Abrahamic religions, with ostensibly the same original god of the ot

                Liked by 1 person

              • Jesus is said to have been a reformation or ‘completion’ of judaism in the same was Mohammed is said to have been the final prophet of Allah, the same god of the ot abraham

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              • I would disagree to equate Jesus and Muhammad in the same degree of any kind. Jesus did miracles, raised the dead and so forth. Muhammad did nothing but claimed to be a prophet of God who introduced a false god. Like I said before the Qur’an purpose is to attack Christianity and if you read what Jesus said that Satan wanted to destroy the church (believers) but that would not happen.

                Liked by 1 person

              • The inventors of the nt ‘Jesus’ did the same thing as Muhammed, he just did it a few centuries earlier.
                Took an existing faith and mixed it with their own pagan religious beliefs, (trinity and human sacrifice for sins, dying and rising gods)
                Muhammed wanted a following, he tried to hijack judaism and christianity by peaceful means. Mecca kicked his ass out. Then he returned to take control by force.

                Liked by 1 person

              • I’m sorry KIA but it seems to me that you really don’t understand the Bible and how it came into being which was not from men but from the Holy Spirit who used them to write down the message. If you want to understand Christianity I love to help you understand but we are going to go in a circle then is like a dog chasing his tail.

                Liked by 1 person

              • Sorry, Spaniard. I know a lot more bible than you think I do. Preached, taught it and studied it for decades. I don’t know how old you are but I was a Christian from the age of 15 in 1981 and a minister in various roles for 25 of those years.
                Yes, I know and understand the Bible.

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              • Excuse me… do you know what denominations I was part of? Pentecostal and charismatic (light)
                and all Christian believers have the Holy spirit as part of the new birth.
                Might want to stop assuming what I did and didn’t have, and what I do or do not know. It’s not polite.

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              • Lol… do you know who john is referring to there? Not fallen away Christians, but Christian teachers who teach contrary to what john accepted. Literally… other Christians, not people who left christianity.

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              • Sorry, how long did you say you’ve been saved? And how many years have you studied the Bible? Not a jab. I’m truly curious. It will help me to understand where you are coming from better

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              • 1 John 2:1,15-19
                My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ the Righteous One…

                (EDIT: I removed the rest of the passage. I have a Bible, and I’m sure those who want to look up the reference can. No need to copy and paste the whole verbiage here. -kia)

                …John is talking to children meaning believers in Jesus Christ. Please read the context in its entirety. Anyways it was good talking to you KIA but you do not know the scriptures because you never had the Holy Spirit but if you with a sincere heart ask the Lord to give you understanding to know the truth He will. God bless you sir and good day

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              • I have a Bible, several in fact. As well as multiple translations in different languages.
                So… you’re leaving are you? Were your questions honestly seeking my answers and an open discussion, or were they just more bait and switch? Oh well, at least I told you more than you already seemed to know about the origins of islam as an abrahamic faith. Same god, different name

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              • By the way, there are whole large denominations that do not hold to OSAS or Reformed Theology. You do know that probably the vast majority of Christians do not believe the way you do about ‘the perseverance of the saints’, right?
                Are they all not True Christians ™ either?

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              • I will answer this last question but after this I don’t see this going anywhere since you have made up your mind on rejecting the only way to salvation Jesus Christ.

                What did Jesus teach about salvation or eternal life? First of all the word eternal life suggests that when Jesus gives you a gift something that’s eternal it will last eternally or else salvation is not eternal, it cannot be.

                In john 10: 28-30 it says, “28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

                Very clearly Jesus is saying that no one who puts their trust in Jesus will ever perish…that’s what Jesus said and I don’t care what anyone may say Jesus overrides them. Then Jesus says that the Father who has given them to Him is greater than all…now we know that includes us as well or else you are claiming to be greater than the Father. No one is able to snatch you out of the Father hands because the Father is all powerful and who can or dare try to take people out of His hands.
                Jesus then says plainly that He is God “I and the Father are One.” To be one with God in the context of John 10 is making Himself have the same nature and power of the Father. If you do not believe in eternal security that doesn’t mean that you are not saved because what saves you is faith in Jesus Christ, this is not a salvific issue.

                Liked by 1 person

              • Thank you for your very authoritative answer from your understanding and doctrinal background. But many of the Reformed faith would disagree with you… to them, their POV is the gospel, yours is not. Also catholics would disagree for different reasons altogether, there’s is the True Gospel ™ and church, and outside of the Catholic Church, there is no salvation… like I said, your Christianity is not the only christianity and they all condemn each other. Osas and belief in apostasy not a Salvific issue? Clearly you have no clue.
                The differences and mini ‘wars’ over true doctrine within different brands of christianity, and REAL wars and killing thru the centuries, denies the teaching of that one holy spirit that teaches everyone the same thing. It is literally evidence that the whole Christian message is man made, not God breathed. And yes, that’s another reason I left the Faith I held for 34 years and was minister in for 25 of those.
                You never answered how long you’ve been a Christian or how many years you’ve studied the bible… I showed you mine, will you be honest enough to show me yours?

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              • It is correct. He and the rest wrote against false teachers, these were some of them trying to lead others away from the “true” Faith and into different “Christianities”. You would call it a ‘church split’ where pastor 1 rebukes and condemns pastor 2, and also the reverse

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              • Revisting this comment of yours:
                I know it makes you feel more confident and assured in your Faith to believe this, but it’s just not true. Not even from a Christian biblical standpoint. Thus the question I asked you about different denominations that don’t agree with your position. You would have to be forced to the conclusion that they are all ‘not indwelt’ by th3 holy spirit either, and thus not truly saved, because their Holy Spirit discerned teaching disagrees with your Holy Spirit discerned teaching.
                You would in fact be writing of millions of believers in Jesus for not believing as you do in eternal security or the osas teaching.
                Maybe you would be like John writing against antichrists who teach things contrary to True Doctrine ™
                Not a Salvific issue? You have no clue what you are saying

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              • I don’t understand what you want from me? Do you want to debate, argue or deceive me? I don’t know but if you are sincere in wanting to know about scripture then I will help you but if its for something else then I don’t see my energy being spent effectively if you want to stay in the dark meaning a life without God. That is your decision.

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              • Evidence. Both the lack of it for the claims made for the Bible and the historicity of the nt portrayal of jesus, and the abundance of evidence against both, both internally and externally. It’s just not true

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    • “The atheist believe in survival of the fittest who excludes self sacrifice. I’m not saying that’s you KIA but that is their model to live by.”
      As an atheist, I can say that is unequivocally NOT true. What I suspect this actually is, is what you’ve been taught to believe by people who don’t know anything about evolution, human solidarity, sociology and psychology and don’t want to know. (Hint, it’s the “survival of the fittest” comment – gives it away every time) There is no requirement to import god or other supernatural explanations for human solidarity or for the basic instinct of all living beings to sacrifice for those they have strong bonds with (i.e. family being the strongest). These instincts are not exclusive to humans. Many animal species exhibit the same behavior. Everyone’s heard of the mama bear. An animal that is one of the fiercest in the animal kingdom when she feels her offspring are threatened. This type of behavior cannot be explained away by an ignorant “atheists believe in the survival of the fittest” trope. You’d do well to do some research on the subject rather than just parrot nonsense that’s been drilled into your head.
      Given your response above, I can see that you have been conditioned to believe what you said about atheists, but I can assure you, you’ve been lied to.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Spaniardviii,

      When a structure collapses, we usually blame the builders and engineers, not the building materials. And when we purchase a defective product, we blame to the manufacturer, not the faulty product.

      So given the above, shouldn’t accountability for any and all shortcomings within the universe revert back to God (its creator/designer), as well?

      Liked by 1 person

    • Yhwh and Allah are most certainly the same god; the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In the Qurán, Musa (Moses) is considered a prophet and is mentioned 136 times. Abraham (mentioned 69 times) is even described as the Middle Eastern gods best friend: “Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend.”

      So, unlerss you can show me some other primary source outside the Pentateuch for this Middle Eastern god, then Yhwh and Allah are indeed the same god.

      Liked by 1 person

  4. I struggle with the concept of worship because my tastes are the complete opposite of everyone elses’. They get to listen to their favorite songs, sing them together, and enjoy the emotional high that comes with having a nostalgic moment. For me, hymns are frustrating, I don’t like being made to sing music that I don’t like, and all the more negative memories are piling up because of it. I visited my grandfather’s church and was hopeful they’d be different when they started off with one contemporary song – but they went back to hymns / old fashioned gospel / bluegrass for the rest of the service and I just knew that I wouldn’t belong there. So I can see your point about worship being all about denying one’s individual identity and creating a group identity that’s uniform in taste and response to the music.

    On heaven/hell – Calvinism says that God chose the elect for salvation before they were even born, the rest can’t go to heaven. The elect cannot resist his grace and so they will be saved and they will never fall away from the faith. If God’s love for all of humanity is the same for all of the elect, and yet he chooses not to save everyone but only the elect – then what you have is a firefighter who sees a dozen people trapped in a burning building who chooses to save only three or four of them – the only thing keeping him from saving all of them is himself. He says this is more glorious than saving everyone. Any human firefighter will tell you that saving a dozen people is more glorious than loosing eight or nine lives.Since the elect is always represented as a faithful remnant that’s smaller than the whole – more than half of all humanity that will ever exist is not going to heaven. Scientists have estimated that somewhere over a hundred billion people have ever lived – around half of them have been lost because God chose not to save them. How can any of us be sure that we really are saved? That question is one people have wrestled with for centuries – Calvinists from centuries ago believed that works backed up faith, so they proved their faith by doing works of all kinds – forming the protestant work ethic. They kept themselves so busy, they hadn’t the time to think about whether or not they were saved. I don’t know what modern Calvinists / Believers in Reformed Theology / The Doctrines of Grace do to convince themselves that they’re saved – I think it’s simpler to not be a Calvinist.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Reformed believers generally do all they can to escape the conclusion of double election. The idea that if god elects for salvation, then he is also electing people to not be saved by not choosing them. The vast majority of people born into the world and dying thru all history, have been created just to destroy them and torture them Eternally in a hell that they can do nothing to escape… because God didn’t elect them for salvation, just created them for destruction.
      Yeah… great guy that is, right? I pass

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      • Yep that point of theology is enough to prove God can’t be perfect.

        The Arminian theology makes more sense. The reality is that The Bible seems to teach both Arminianism and Calvinism and leaves the conflict unresolved. A Holy Mystery to the indoctrinated, a clear contradiction to the objective person.

        Liked by 1 person

  5. Pingback: this post has no title | Random thoughts

  6. Matthew 5:11-12
    (EDIT: scripture removed by kia. We all have bibles and can look it up. No need to quote for us as if we’re ignorant)
    I rejoice that I’m counted worthy to be insulted for Christ sake by you KIA and makagutu on his blog. Jesus loves all of you and you have a chance to be forgiven of all your sins through faith in Jesus Christ if you believe that He died for your sins was buried and on the third day rose from the grave in victory. Jesus’ loves all of you so much that He doesn’t want to see anyone perish but to come to the Lord Jesus in repentance and faith for eternal life before its too late. No one knows how long we are here on earth but one day we all have to meet our end I pray that we may meet it with Jesus in our hearts.
    Romans 3:23-26
    (EDIT: Bible quote removed by kia)
    John 3:16-17
    (EDIT: … and again. Removed by kia)

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      • I feel sorry for you. Believe me you won’t be saying that when you meet Jesus Christ face to face. I will keep you in my prayers that you may wake up from your stupor and give your life to Jesus before you meet Him. God bless.

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          • You can call me all the names you like but it doesn’t change the fact that the same words you are using to insult me with will come back to haunt you in judgment day. I never insulted you but showed you all the respect due you. But how can you love your neighbor without God in your heart, for change starts within. You say that I’m crazy and nuts for believing in Jesus but this Jesus who you have rejected is the one who changed my heart to love you and those who curse me. Jesus is the Truth, the Way and the Life no one can go to the Father except through Him. He is alive and sits on the right hand of all Mighty God. I give glory, honor and praises to the Lord is Jesus Christ who is Lord of Lords and King of Kings Amen.

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            • You can call me all the names you like but it doesn’t change the fact that the same words you are using to insult me with will come back to haunt you in judgment day. I never insulted you but showed you all the respect due you. But how can you love your neighbor without Allah in your heart, for change starts within. You say that I’m crazy and nuts for believing in The Prophet Mohammed but this Mohammed who you have rejected is the one who changed my heart to love you and those who curse me. Mohammed is the Truth, the Way and the Life no one can go to the Father except through Him. He is alive and sits on the right hand of all Mighty Allah. I give glory, honor and praises to the Prophet Mohammed who is Prophet of Prophets and and King of Kings Amen.

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