A Pass On from CS, with an addition for the “Hearing Impaired”

Some light reading for your day… From one who has your best interests at heart. (Really he does, believe him) and some thoughts of my own, of course. -Kia
————–
Elementary principles
Posted on August 5, 2016 by ColorStorm

https://thenakedtruth2.wordpress.com/2016/08/05/elementary-principles/

Here’s a shout out to many of the readers in this zip code who are at various mile markers of understanding in this pilgrim way.

There is a common thought that is rolled around, and while the intentions are good, like most things, there is a more excellent way. So in all its simplicity, here goes:

God said it.
I believe it.
That settles it.

On the surface, and without trying too hard to find fault, these few lines do present truth. Think about these three thoughts before you proceed, and ask yourself how, and in what way, could the idea here be improved upon…and then tell me if there is a slight difference.

God said it.
That settles it.

There. Much better wouldn’t you say? God’s word is settled whether men believe it or not. As a matter of fact, it is ‘forever settled in heaven,’ as the good Psalm reads. So we may as well get on board with the idea that God needs no help from us to settle his word, but it sure is nice of Him to give us a heads up that WE may be settled in our hearts.

Indeed, may our hearts indict a good matter.
——-
(and now a word from our sponsor… KIA) 🙂

What he meant to clarify was that if God said it, that settles it, Whether we believe it or not.

So remember that when you are dealing with a Christian believer and they are imposing on you the commands and requirements of their faith.

Whether you believe or not, you are subject to their belief. Does this seem reasonable or just? This is why the Amateur Internet Apologists feel perfectly justified in treating other who disagree, challenge or attempt to counter their Pronouncements of Truth ™ with such scorn, contempt and utter disrespect and aggression.

It’s “settled in Heaven‘, it’s settled for them, so it’s settled for you whether you believe or like it or not. This is what Totalitarianism and Spiritual Fascism looks like. “You’ll take the boot and like it, God damn it!”. And FU if you don’t. It just doesn’t matter. It’s settled!

But there were others who are recorded in the Old Testament who went by that refrain, or at least the writers said they did… What of them? What did they do on the “Say So” of the God of the Bible? Today we might call them schizophrenics and bipolar. Oh yeah, they “heard” their God tell them to kill other nations, men, women, children and even infants around them.

“Insanity is when you hear voices in your head telling you wake up in the middle of the night and kill your son…”

(unless your name is Abraham)

“…Or someone else’s Son”

(Unless your name is Joshua)

Islam isn’t the only Religion of Peace that needs to be kept in check. There were somethings in history called

The Crusades,
The Inquisition,
The Salem Witch Trials

What do you think the Pilgrims to America were fleeing From?

Christianity here in the US is fairly tamed when compared with what it’s done in the past when it’s had the ability and freedom to impose on others the commands and requirements of their faith.

Europe and the Middle East was once littered with the bodies and wrecked nations left behind as one Christianity fought for control from other Christianities and even other types of Abrahamic Monotheism (Islam). The rule of the Pope and his Reformed successors once had the Freedom to impose on others, even this who did not believe as they did, different types of Christian Sharia Law.

Search your history books. While Calvin was not nearly as successful as the Pope in Rome, he only managed to kill a handful… Mere dozens, he was just as ambitious in Geneva as he imposed the “God said it, that settles it, whether you believe or not” mentality.

In reality, we don’t see this here in America so much today because Christianity no longer has the Power or the Freedom to execute it’s will here with impunity or without challenge. But go to some nations in Africa… Or Central/South America, you are bound to see a different Christianity still imposing it’s bloody and fascistic will on societies, believers and non believers alike.

Here it’s more subtle, more political, more ‘restrained’ by our form of religious freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution and a pluralistic society that makes them behave, whether they like it or not.

So no, Color Storm, it doesn’t settle it just because the God of the Bible says it, or should I say… Just because the writers said He said it… no matter how you phrase it.

No, it doesn’t settle it at all. Not anymore. Not in a free society. Not when you no longer have the Power to impose on others the commands and requirements of your faith.

We stopped the Insanity already with Freedom.
-kia

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302 thoughts on “A Pass On from CS, with an addition for the “Hearing Impaired”

  1. That restriction is, what we’d call in economic, welfare maximization where in maximum welfare of the whole society is top priority and so there is freedom to practice any activity including religion within the regime as long as it doesn’t jeopardize the top priority. So yes there is “freedom” including restriction but I am okay with that I’m order to avoid radicalization and violence that follows people mousing belief for their own selfish interests as has happened in the past.

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  2. The essential problem with CS’ apologetics is that they are essentially the same as would be used by a Muslim apologist.

    That should give CS cause for pause and reflection, but somehow I doubt it will.

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      • At one point I thought I should consider some other religions, but I relied on Christian sources for information on the other religions. So in essence I was only really seeking enough information to allow me to conclude that the other religions were ‘patently ridiculous.

        In the case of Islam, the behaviour of Muslims just confirmed my view that there could not be any sort of divine being behind that religion. The provisions of Islamic ‘justice’ where a woman who was raped could be stoned for adultery while the rapist could escape punishment once again proved it was not a divine religion. I could not understand how ‘God’ could require people to fast even from water during daylight hours, that just seemed crazy to me.

        Now my path out of Christianity started when I studied Christian history and started to see that the Church as a historical body seemed very human and not really divine. Also I struggled to understand how ‘God’ allowed whole Christian communities in North Africa to be eradicated by Islam.

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    • In the beginning, man created the god of the Bible out of a lump of their own fear and ignorance. This god gave them control and power over others, and they saw that it was very good… amen

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          • What you mean an upgrade to the starship described in Ezekiel Chapter 1:

            And when the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures rose from the earth, the wheels rose. Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, and the wheels rose along with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those rose from the earth, the wheels rose along with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. (Ezekiel 1:19-21)

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      • Doesn’t it just boggle your mind, once the deactivated neural circuitry associated with critical social assessment, reactivates, and you see it all for what it is? It just goes to show you how powerful these attachment hormones are, and the power of suggestion.

        “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

        ― Carl Sagan

        Because of fairly recent findings in brain research, now we know why that happens.

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    • One of the most bizarre claims that CS makes is about the Bible being settled forever in Heaven. This is one of CS’ favourite arguments. But the evidence just contradicts this statement. What is worse CS knows the evidence contradicts this claim, yet he is apparently unfazed.

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      • The psalmist who wrote that “they word, oh lord, is forever settled in the heavens” (Sorry, from memory) certainly didn’t have Jesus dying on a cross in mind or the abolition of the temple sacrifices after the destruction of the temple in 70ad. He thought it was settled, but I guess he was wrong because the gospel changed all that to a one time sacrificial offering of a man, not just for the jews “but for the gentiles also” per Paul.
        Far from settled, the Word has been changed, adapted and reinterpreted thousands of times if not millions over the centuries to accommodate all manner of belief and practices.

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          • As CS has so usefully shown us by errant lyrics applying 1 John 2 passage to Deconverts and back handedly branding as not True Christians ™ those who might disagree with his interpretations

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  3. hey mike-

    Just a correction to your observation. I am making NO imposition as to your requirement to believe this or that. None.

    For example: In the beginning, God said: ‘let there be light,’ and there was light. Take it or leave it. A man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho. Take it or leave it. Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Take it or leave it. the wages of sin is death. Take it or leave it.

    You can certainly choose to disbelieve, but it is still settled, whether we believe it or not. God btw does not need our approval for His own existence.

    He made the stars also. I make no demands that you believe, so unlike certain ones who will lop a head off.

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    • Not only that, but Christian believers follo2ing and implementing biblical truth in society at large used the Bible to support and defend African slavery for hundreds of ywars

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    • The kkk in the south is a thoroughly Christian organization implementing biblical truth in society at large, or at least they were when fire bombing black churches and burning crosses and killing people who spoke out for civil-rights

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        • A Christian in simplest terms is a believer in Jesus’s death Resurrection and soon coming, as informed by the Bible. Many voices that disagree with each other with in that definition don’t get the ‘out’ of denying anyone but them is not a True Christian.

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    • Harassment, abuse and torture, even killing of gays in the US and around the World? Instigated and foment ed by biblical pronouncement from pulpits… need I go on?

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      • Hmmm. Sure you can go on in ignorance, but you will understand mike that a young punk who says he can beat Tiger Woods in golf, while never swinging a club, is simply a young punk with a big mouth.

        I’m pretty sure the idea of ‘so then by their fruits ye shall know them…………’ is quite helpful in distinguising the whitetail deer from the hyena.

        You lay your own snare, then step in it, when you try to embarrass believers who are simply decent people who detest atrocities of every stripe.

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          • Ah but mike, Peter and John would have been chastised by you as ‘coming up short’ in the fruit department, if you were to judge them in moments of weakness.

            But for God’s sake man, they ordered no one to kill another. And I have never known a single believer who exhibits the treacherous deeds and words as you allege.

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            • My point wasn’t that Christians in America or westernized countries do these things NOW. It’s that they have in the PAST when they had the unfettered and unhindered freedom to do so. Much like the kkk no longer have the power to do what they did in the south in the 40s thru the 70s, the way the church in SA no longer has the power to enforce their “god said it, that settles it” mentality for apartheid, and the puritan’s in Massachusetts no longer have the freedom to burn, hang and kill women who they think are witches (still going on in African countries by the way in Christian churches)
              Of course you don’t know of any Christians doing these things where you live. Freedom, pluralistic society, scientific advances and democratic governments took that power away from the Cristian church in those countries

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              • If you would get your head out of the fog mike, you may be able to see that what you despise is clouded by your own mistake of putting God under your thumb:

                A common fault by they who hold God in contempt in His own creation.

                I am not the reason you find scripture contemptible. Neither is any other believer. See ya, and have fun at your playground.

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              • No… I never made you or anyone else the reason I left christianity or the r3ason that I now see the Bible and the god it portrays as utterly contemptible and ‘demonic’. You all just provided the motivation to look deeper. I didn’t have god ‘under my thumb’ either. I was under his, or rather the thumb of christianity, as a disciple, Follower, servant and missionary. I was a true Christian and about as devoted to the faith as anyone I know.

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              • Sorry mike, but you give the impression you have no clue what Christianity is.

                And this should not startle you, but you should be proud to be delivered from such delusions…………..

                And btw, your continual reference to God, as ‘god,’ is a pretty good indicator that I am entirely correct.

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              • Sorry cs, I have every indication and personal experience as to what christianity is. You dont get to use the “you were never a true christian” on me. I have served in missions here in the inner city of the Phoenix area (5 and a half years) and over seas in south Korea as a missionary, and two short term missions in Mexico. Not to mention having led and taught home groups and ministries here in several churches and been a youth minister in a korean Baptist church here, also long time worship leader and minister.
                I’ll put my Christian cv and experience up against yours any day. What’s yours?

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              • Uh mike, as usual, God’s word has the final say, and He is the only authority that matters:

                —They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.—

                As I said, your issue is not with believers mike, never has been, never will be.

                So do tell us unlearned and ignorant ones mike: How does a man become unborn? How does a man default on life? Can you crawl into the womb and ask for a refund?

                And you asking for comparative cv’s should be rather embarrassing, for you………..as if there is pride for what you now detest.

                You ask the wrong questions and ignore answers already given.

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              • 1 John 2 is about false Christian teachers, not false Christians, or Deconverts who left the faith. The teachers were still Christians, and they were still Christian teachers. They just taught differently than the Apostle John, for which they were branded heretics. He did not say they were not Christians anymore, just false teachers. Get your bible right

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              • Oh brother, the spirit and principle is identical, or perhaps you have never heard of primary, secondary, and tertiary applications……

                Or would you rather hear about the ‘unreasoning animals,’ or ‘wells without water?’

                You are sinking further and further into the quicksand mike, and you are continuing to embarrass yourself by appealing to something that you despise.

                It’s a sad sight really.

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              • No… your interpretations, secondar6, tertiary and otherwise are interpretations, nothing more. And they hold no truth if they contradict what the passage ACTUALLY says in the original context of who said it and why and for what purpose. Go back to Bible school… if you ever attended

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              • mike mike mike

                That ‘know it all thing’ gotta go. 😉

                You just do not see that I am trying to be polite here…………

                But you may want to consider HOW a man who says he is borne from above……….can be Unborn…………

                …………since the Pantokrator……..aw nevermind.

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              • How can he be unborn from above? By realizing he that genea anothen is a lie in the first place. By realizing that although it’s a nice story and fairy tale of human substitutionary sacrifice where one is able to avoid personal responsibility for ones actions and treatment of others in the past, and a cloak for such in the future, it’s all just a lie.
                No one is born again from above. No one is ‘a new creation’, of no one can it in reality be said ‘Christ in you, the hope of glory’
                It’s a myth

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              • Last call bartender. Perhaps you should have another looksee at the life and times of a certain man, born blind……..

                ………..and how he was harassed to explain how he was given sight…….and how his parents were caught in the mix……..and said, ”yep, he’s our son, and he was born blind, but we have no clue how he now sees.’

                You see mike, try as you may, you are sweating entirely too much in trying to make ‘seeing people’ appear as blind.

                Not too smart. Your disappointment in scripture does nothing to remove its lustre. Get a clue maybe?

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              • Born blind you say? Written by John you say? Why does that gospel disagree in so many places and have so much that is non existent in the other gospels? The first full copy of John we have is from when you say? Sorry, as porgy and best so eloquently says “it ain’t necessarily so”

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              • Where is my violin so I can cry me a river…………………

                It is settled. It has been finished. It is finished. It will always be finished.

                God’s word is good! And now for mike’s attempt at a 10 yd field: the snap…the hold……the run up….the kick………oh sorry, way wide left……..

                Need I remind you mike that God’s word has never lost an argument to ants or pipsqueaks?

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              • “Your honor, I move that the witness’s answer be stricken as non responsive” sorry cs, it stays as evidence of your delusion.

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              • That name… lord of hosts… for christ. Is a mythical application backwards. It’s how religions reinterpret previous stories to make their own seem like a L continuation or fulfillment. You’re proving the point of the mythicists

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              • But to your statement that “gods word has the final say” and is the only authority that matters… once again, you illustrate perfectly the point of my post.

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              • I had to laugh at this entire post. I think the funniest was KIA thinking that he could debate with ColorStorm, despite KIA’s serious ignorance of the very basics of Christianity. The funniest things about all this, as well as the comments, were:
                1) The whining about some kind of Christian echo chamber, when an echo chamber is exactly what KIA appears to have set up here.

                2) The really basic lack of knowledge of Christianity on KIA’s part. I mean, really, KIA — comparing Curriculum Vitae’s?!? Again, anyone with even a third-grade level of knowledge of Christianity understands that the only assessment of one’s Christianity that counts is entirely in God’s hands. Nobody with even a tiny understanding of Christianity would consider a comparison of cv’s as valid. ColorStorm gave a persuasive demonstration of his “bona fides” by not rising to such silly bait.

                3) Pursuant to that: @KIA, we can’t know what you were doing all that time when you were supposedly ministering here, and missionarying there and teaching here and preaching there, but it sure seems as though it wasn’t to glorify God, but rather to burnish your cv.

                4) That attempt to joust over cv’s is just so dumb, that it really throws into doubt your entire cv. I mean, no one who had been, as you say you were, a True Christian, would give even the tiniest hoot about his cv, but rather would care entirely about how his life and acts were serving to glorify God. That you don’t know this, kinda makes anyone with half an ounce of understanding of Christianity think that all along there was a whole lot of career-building, and résumé-building, and social climbing, in your earlier Christianity… but not a lot of Christianity.

                5) The almost pathological attempt to draw people away from the vastly bloodier history of atheism in the world. Atheism was a key component in the murders of 120 million people in the last century alone. This is indisputable fact. That the atheists struggle desperately to dispute it, shows the irrationality of the general atheist mindset, which could be summed up as: Believe as I do (ie: don’t believe in God), or I’ll kill you. Where else have we seen that state-of-mind recently? (Parenthetically, that’s one thing that has launched a line of inquiry here at our small but increasingly influential think tank: is Islam really a religion, or was the founder hoping to tack on some divine underpinnings to what was essentially a military power grab?)

                Finally, I understand all this, KIA. I understand it well. An anecdote might be useful here. Years ago, I started a “program,” called, “Softball With a Cause.” The idea was to pull together softball teams comprised of players from the businesses in the building where I was working at the time. We’d play games for which the price of admission would be one or more non-perishable food item, that we’d then donate to the local food pantry, or homeless shelter. My idea, though, was to impress a young woman whom I fancied at the time.

                We played a few games, our efforts collected a few hundred non-perishable food items, we gave them to the local food pantries and homeless shelters. I remember that somewhere in that process, when we checked with the eventual recipients of our food items, someone said to me, “You’re collecting points in heaven for this!” I remember my exact internal reaction: “I hope I’m collecting points with Doreen!” My outward reply was something like, “Oh, thank you, you’re so kind. We’re just trying to do a good thing here, that’s all.”

                Funnily enough, I then included “Softball With A Cause” on several future résumés! It served me well. When it came up in conversations, some prospective employers were quite impressed! Bottom line, though: If that young lady hadn’t been in my building, there’d have been no “Softball With A Cause.”

                As just downright good a person as I appeared at the time, the real motivation for “Softball With A Cause” was, let’s face it… ummm… less good.

                I know I’m reading between the lines here but, KIA: your loud, proud, promiscuous flogging of your earlier Christian cv has that very same aroma of, shall we say, less than Christian motivations.

                You are absolutely correct if you say to me, “Who are you to judge?” And the answer to that very good question is: “I’m nobody to judge,” and I refuse to pass judgment on whether or not your plainly implausible claims about your Christian cv are accurate, or rather, as they seem: either fabricated or wildly exaggerated.

                Btw: This all ties in with another set-to you and I had at another location, in which you showed, rather blatantly, that you didn’t grasp the very basic concept of “bearing false witness”

                Also, I understand the reflexive desire to ascribe great nobility to atheism, a “belief system” (or a belief in non-belief system, if you prefer) that was a key component in the murder of more than a hundred million people in the last century. I don’t blame you for that at all. When I was coming to terms with the fraudulent nature of “Softball With A Cause,” I did run the “Well-At-Least-You-Did-A-Good-Thing” argument through my mind and conscience. I couldn’t get past that other truth, though: “If that young lady hadn’t been in my building, there’d have been no ‘Softball With A Cause.'”

                Furthermore, if it were the case that all we have to do is get some good done, then we’d all give a pass to the managers of charities who dip their hands in the charities’ tills, but still manage to spread at least some charitable giving or acts around. We don’t give them a pass, though, do we? No, we toss them in jail. It turns out that we do, indeed, judge the motivations of those involved with charitable programs, foundations, enterprises — as well as their acts.

                To bring this full circle, KIA, your words are a really strong indicator that your earlier Christian cv is nothing but a bunch of hogwash. Oh, you might have done all those things, but likely not as a Christian. You likely did them as part of your career choice, or to build your cv — for moments just like this one — or for social purposes, or some other reason having nothing to do with the glorification of God. But, truly, it is not my place to judge you, and I don’t. It is only God’s place and, surely, He will. As he does for everyone. 🙂

                Best,

                — x

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              • You really should consider bite sized comments to keep it more possible for others to reasonably respond… if in fact that is your desire rather than just bombing people with words

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              • Seriously? The belief in God? “Bite-sized comments?” Is the topic that tiny that it could come down to bite-sized comments?

                You’re kidding, right?

                Do you really think that the belief, or not, in God is addressable in “bite-sized comments?”

                I’m guessing that this comment explains a bit about your ignorance of Christianity.

                Best,

                — x

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              • I never insult anyone. There’s no such thing as an “insult.”

                I assume you’re suggesting that my “ignorant” comment was the insult.

                If it’s untrue, it’s, well … untrue. And it’s not an insult, but a falsehood. And one should be able to refute it easily.

                A falsehood cannot be an insult. Something untrue about you cannot be an insult.

                If I were to call Einstein “stupid,” he’d be correct to say that I was wrong, but he’d be absolutely incorrect to suggest that I’d insulted him.

                An easier example: If I were to call Shaquille O’Neal “short,” should he be insulted? Of course not.

                There is no such thing as an insult. You would be very well-served to recognize that. 🙂

                Best,

                — x

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              • Lol! No. There’s no such thing as any kind of insult.

                Not sure what an “option insult” is as opposed to an … “insult.” 🙂

                An assertion, any assertion is either true, in which case it’s not an insult… it’s the truth … or it’s false, in which case it’s just a falsehood.

                Best,

                — x

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              • I forgot to add one thing: I did “get the girl.”

                Later, she dumped me, as she was right to do, when it became evident that the founding of “Softball With A Cause” didn’t really have the noble motivations I claimed for it.

                Best,

                — x

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              • I forgot to add one more thing: There is a simple historical truth: Atheism killed many, many TIMES more people in the last one hundred years alone than Christianity in the entire two millennia of its existence.

                Again, no real historians dispute this.

                Best,

                — x

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              • Funny… not atheist here though. The comparison of who killed how many more… dilutes the impact that christianity HAS killed in the past and in some nations still does. But thx for the comment. I got a good laugh at your ‘logical’ dismissal of the atrocities directly motivated by christianity and the ‘that settles it’ mentality

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              • Don’t forget: I dismissed nothing. It might surprise you that I admit that there are an awful lot of Christians who have behaved badly, who have behaved in overtly anti-Christian ways.

                They were wrong to do it, and they absolutely opened the door to scurrilous accusations against Christianity itself.

                There is simply no way to find justification for the initiation of any hostile act against anyone who has not initiated a hostile act against you.

                With that said, the constant invocation of the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc. is simply fraudulent. Yes, there were Christians behaving badly in there, but (1) the Crusades were a defensive action, an attempt to take back lands that were taken by muslims. The Inquisition was initiated to stop non-judicial killings. Was it perfect? Heck no! However, there is a basic truth about the Inquisition: It reduced the occurrence of the killing of non-Christians by Christians behaving badly.

                Do I approve of either? I approve of the Crusades. Of course. If they had been successful the bottom line would have been massively fewer killings of innocent people over the centuries. That strikes me as obvious. And: I approve of the original intent of the Inquisition. I wish they had been completely consistent with Christian teaching, and had prevented all killings of non-Christians.

                However, in retrospect, I wish I had been completely consistent with Christian teachings all my life. I sincerely, truly, fervently do. We’re people. We’re imperfect. We all get it wrong. A lot.

                It’s important to note that there simply are no “atrocities motivated by Christianity.” Ever. There simply are no justifications for atrocities in Christianity.

                There are people who will seize on anything to justify their motivation to do evil deeds. Pick a justification, any justification. Some choose Christianity, presuming of course, that the many Christians in their land will swallow their codswallop and follow them.

                Yes, you can say the same of the virulently atheist Adolf Hitler. However, there is a “correct” understanding of Christianity. There is a correct understanding of everything. Obviously. This shouldn’t be controversial

                The “that settles it” mentality is just fine. There’s nothing wrong with it. For example: you can argue that the law of gravity is not settled, but go ahead and disprove it. No matter your argument, there’s no one arguing against it. However, there’s no prohibition against your arguing against it.

                I guess that would mean that it’s “not settled.” You may laugh at that, but there are many in the United States arguing that people who are obviously men are actually women, and vice versa … and a few dozen other positions that all quite obviously violate scientific facts… as well as common sense.

                A simple truth: If God did say it — whatever it is — then, obviously, that’s reality. And it is settled. And, of course, you should believe it, else you’re arguing against reality. That you disbelieve it doesn’t change that obvious truth. Nor, does it change your freedom to disbelieve reality, and your right (in America) to argue for another reality.

                Again, my brother has a patient who believes that he’s from Saturn. Are you really going to say to me that the idea that this dude is from Saturn is no longer settled? Really?

                There are things that are “settled” in life. Don’t be surprised at the notion.

                Best,

                — x

                Liked by 1 person

            • As for Peter and John? I’m sure as Christians they were probably a good sight more in line with the fruits of the Spirit in gal 5 than you have shown.

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        • Many Christians I know would question whether you are a true Christian by your fruits. I wouldn’t because basic christianity is belief and faith in the work of Christ, informed by the Bible. There are as many types of true christianity especially as there are people on the earth. You dont get to say which are and are not.

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    • For example: In the beginning, God said: ‘let there be light,’ and there was light. Take it or leave it.

      CS, the fact that some Aaronid priest, in captivity in Babylon in the 500’s BCE SAID that he did, doesn’t make it so – and doesn’t mean I have to believe that he knows more than I do on the matter.

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          • So you never heard the infamous ‘sounds of silence’ by Art and Paul?

            So silence means death does not speak? That the mute are irrelevant?

            The stars do everything to testify to WHO made them. And the ironic thing is: You know this, after all, you are the knowitall…then again, everyone knows this…

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              • The heavens testify to the glory of God.

                In the person of Christ, the the glory of God is revealed.

                The testimony of arithmetic reveals the glory of God.

                The calving of fawns reveals the glory of God.

                And the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Moses, Daniel, Esther, Isaiah, Nehemiah, Adam, Noah, Wally, -xp, myself, etc, etc, never sleeps, and watches the nation of Israel according to His own promise..

                But I suggest you reread and consider the boxed and wrapped gift at your doorstep by -xp in this very post; you know, the long one……….the detail to cover your complaints and to present daylight should give you pause.

                He added stability to your thread here with presenting a clear cut argument.

                (and the bonus observations about comparing resumes is pretty good)

                Like

              • When I look at the night sky, I see the magnificence of our universe and feel my innate connection to the untold multitude of stars, knowing that it is from them that I have my existence.

                I see nor hear any testimony of an imaginary god.

                Liked by 2 people

              • Even if there were, how would cs propose to link the existence of HIS particular Christian version of the biblical Abrahamic God to their ‘creation’?
                He’d rather just spout off with meaningless platitudes and pronouncements with no evidence or linkage provided at all.

                Liked by 3 people

              • Well said Nan. When I look up at the night sky, I experience far more awe now than I did as a devout Christian. But we are certainly not alone in this thinking. Nearly every deconvertee I’ve come across online has said the same thing.

                “The most astounding fact is the knowledge that the atoms that comprise life on Earth the atoms that make up the human body are traceable to the crucibles that cooked light elements into heavy elements in their core under extreme temperatures and pressures. These stars, the high mass ones among them went unstable in their later years they collapsed and then exploded scattering their enriched guts across the galaxy guts made of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen and all the fundamental ingredients of life itself.

                These ingredients become part of gas cloud that condense, collapse, form the next generation of solar systems stars with orbiting planets, and those planets now have the ingredients for life itself. So that when I look up at the night sky and I know that yes, we are part of this universe, we are in this universe, but perhaps more important than both of those facts is that the Universe is in us.

                When I reflect on that fact, I look up – many people feel small because they’re small and the Universe is big – but I feel big, because my atoms came from those stars. There’s a level of connectivity. That’s really what you want in life, you want to feel connected, you want to feel relevant; you want to feel like you’re a participant in the goings on of activities and events around you That’s precisely what we are, just by being alive.

                ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

                Liked by 3 people

          • Just a quick point of clarification, Mike:

            The stars are much older than what the Bible says they are. Not only that, but we know how stars are formed, and it doesn’t match what the Bible says about how they form. Plus, the Bible doesn’t even mention how the Sun is a star (or that day and night depend on the rotation of the Earth, and not on some divine agent speaking things into existence). If this was the creation myth of any different religion, I don’t think there would be much controversy of saying the deity that spawned it doesn’t exist.

            So really, the twinkling of the stars does say a lot about the Christian deity. None of it is flattering.

            I hope you are well. 🙂

            Liked by 2 people

  4. Mike wrote: “My point wasn’t that Christians in America or westernized countries do these things NOW. It’s that they have in the PAST when they had the unfettered and unhindered freedom to do so.”

    Oh, it’s still happening now, here in the U.S. There methodologies have change — they’ve become more cunning “civilized”.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. I noticed a bizarre post by James, “One thing Christian apologists should never do”. James, apparently without any sense of irony, seems to have got the atheist and christian positions reversed.

    It just goes to show how much bias is in the eye of the beholder.

    Like this comment, ‘If you do go to the effort, they often wave their hand at your response and change the subject.’. Surely James has made a mistake and is actually referring to ColorStorm and Christian apologists.

    Methinks James is simply presenting a strawman argument because it suits the prejudices of his audience.

    I see Godless Cranium is seeking to engage with James. Good luck to him, I no longer see any point in trying to engage with James.

    Liked by 1 person

    • James is unable to apply to himself or his own faith the critical thought or even common sense he seems to be claiming he uses with others.
      He’s just dishonest, untrustworthy and hopelessly deluded in thinking he’s the example and pattern for Internet apologetics. What an ass

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  6. I should add that back on the post “The Foolishness of Atheism: My Thoughts” over at James’, a visitor, David, asked James about all people having no excuse, because of the witness of creation. David asked James about the people who had never heard the Gospel, how could they know if there was a creator that Jesus was the only way. Needless to say James could not answer so stopped the discussion.

    So perhaps I can give James an answer. So James, the respected Christian preacher, Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones addressed this issue in depth. He concluded that the only answer that was faithful to the Bible was that this is a ‘Holy Mystery’. Dr Lloyd-Jones saw it as similar to children who die young.

    Of course the atheist position is that ‘Holy Mystery’ is a Christian term used to explain a Biblical teaching that makes no sense.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. CS wrote: God’s word has the final say, and He is the only authority that matters

    That’s everything wrapped up in a nutshell. For those who believe the bible (and by definition, “God”), there is nothing else than can be said.

    The difficulty comes when individuals begin to look more closely at what has been written (I mean, really examine the entire story) and recognize it for what it is … several books written by several authors over a period of several hundred years and containing a somewhat loosely held together story of a “divine” entity and “his” actions throughout the ages.

    It is like the tricks presented by accomplished magicians. What you see is not what really is. But until you study magic in depth, the illusion will persist.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Nan, his comment there is fully and completely the embodiment of what the post is about. It is the foundation and motivator of every kind of religious Totalitarianism and Fascism that the world has ever known. If he could view his words, his emotion and force behind the words he typed in the same way we do now… the way he already sees Islam’s similar declarations of Allah’s authority and the reliability and finality of the Koran, he might be able to just begin to understand where we are coming from. But… hand waving and platitudinous bullshit keeps streaming so he doesn’t have to hear, think or understand. THAT’S why I wrote the post to highlight his

      Like

    • Where in scripture is an apple mentioned Peter?

      You guys – your (pl) ignorance is amazing!
      God is not the only one laughing at your ignorant mockery! If you’re going to mock, the least you can do is get it right… hmm.

      Like

  8. Yuppers. It’s there. And it is, as I was trying to tell som and the ancients almost all last week, all about faith and belief placed in the words of writers and people we Trust to tell us the Truth. But… how do we ‘know’ it’s the truth? We simply don’t and cant.

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            • WOW! LOL!
              you’re only asking about history and architecture r i g h t.

              Hmmm… let’s see… who is the one always wanting or seeking historical and architectural evidence????
              Who is the one who claims not to be a you know– umm– “lazy thinker”…

              Interesting, that one should ask questions but couldn’t care less about the answers!

              Deflection will get you nowhere.
              I have no reason to squirm, I’m the one who posed the question that you seem incapable of answering.
              Answer the question please.

              Like

      • Peter,
        anyone who knows scripture knows all the promises are conditional. Read it again..
        if you do ‘this’ then ‘that’ will happen.

        Until you’ve done “this” Peter, you basis for complaint is null and void.

        Are you abiding in His word Peter? What does Scripture say about abiding in His word.
        Abide- means to dwell… to stay there!
        abiding is not a ‘visitation’ or going to the word once in a while etc.

        You have to fulfill your part Peter, God’s part is already fulfilled. He cannot change, but you and I must!

        Like

        • Yes my friend you are correct. My mistake is that after more than three decades of actively seeking to abide, I should’ve realised that God was still testing me.

          The thing is that in my view more than three decades of actively trying to live the life is enough.

          If God does exist, which I doubt, it is up to God to seek me out. I’m done with a one-sided relationship.

          The problem with folk like yourself is that your solution is for me to go back and re-do what I already tried to do. There is no more that I can do, so I will leave it up to ‘God’ to take the initiative.

          Everyone I see in the Bible and Christianity makes more sense to me now that I see it as a human book.

          I have reached the point now where if I did discover that God does exist I would have trouble seeing God as either good, loving or just.

          Liked by 2 people

          • Your comment is quite interesting in that it speaks of a lot of doing i.e. self-effort on your part instead of resting in who you are in Him – .

            I would normally scoff at what I see as your impertinence in wanting God to come seek you out; but I’m reminded of the parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the lost son. All speak of seeking and restoring that which was lost.

            The Shepherd left behind his flock to find only 1 single sheep who went astray and would have come to certain death had He not intervened.
            The bigger lesson here though is that poor, lost sheep did not hide from and curse His master; instead it consented to being found and carried by its master back to sheepfold.

            What’s the value of one single coin compared to all the rest combined – not much. But it was searched for with diligence and with love until it was found.

            And like the lost son, no matter how seemingly insulting our requests, one can never limit God, because He shows here that in spite of the audacity of such a prideful and selfish request, He actually honored that request!

            Like

            • The Shepherd left behind his flock to find only 1 single sheep who went astray and would have come to certain death had He not intervened.

              That sounds like a pretty poor ranching principle it would seem to me.

              Liked by 1 person

          • Except he comes across as condescending by claiming that he’s done what Peter supposedly didn’t. This is the kind of psychological abuse that led my partner to suicide. TA, like GMF, and the others, use manipulative techniques that are prominent in narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths. This is not a surprise since you see this antisocial behavior throughout the bible.

            Liked by 1 person

            • madam, you need to broaden your thought life.

              …because every atheist/materialist/what-ever-ist knows that love your neighbor as yourself is the epitome of antisocial, narcissistic, behavior

              [you have zero knowledge of what I have or haven’t done.]

              Liked by 1 person

              • Yeah Victoria! Broaden it once again to include invisible, immaterial, disembodied minds who leave absolutely no physical trace of their actual existence in this natural world.

                Liked by 1 person

              • TA, perhaps you should take your own advice and broaden your thought life. The Golden Rule was around before Judeo-Christianity. But, you can’t tell someone to love their neighbor as themselves, then tell them if you don’t follow their cultural deity they are going to hell, and not recognize manipulative, antisocial tendencies.

                Liked by 2 people

              • I’ve not presented Peter or anyone with a formula.
                As the resident neuroscientist, perhaps you could tell us, is there a formula for relationship?

                Also, when (and until) you’ve begun admitting unrepentant killers into your home you have no basis for saying God is unfair.

                Like

              • Yes, you told Peter that he’s not doing it right, but you have found the magical formula, which is what set you and Peter apart.

                Oh, so you also believe in Divine Command Theory, too? Why am I not surprised.One has to to justify the antisocial atrocities in the bible.

                What kind of relationship are you talking about? — the kind where you have an invisible friend, an imaginary lover whom you give your best love and loyalties to, or the one where you actually bond with real people?

                Liked by 1 person

              • Well, since Peter agreed that I was correct, perhaps you could get him to clarify instead of ascribing poorly understood statements to me.

                Having never been to cemetery…seminary, I have no clue what DCT is, though I could take a guess; neither am I inclined to look it up… so I guess I’ll have to plea ignorance on that particular label.

                Well, since you’ve chosen to describe relationship in the terms that make sense to you – I plea guilty to both 🙂

                Liked by 1 person

              • Peter’s sarcasm or lack thereof is irrelevant.
                An online dictionary will quickly give the difference between a formula and a promise to you.

                Liked by 1 person

              • How convenient of you to ignore the definition of promise..hmm
                reflective of your entire conversation.

                It’s irrelevant because my statement was:
                anyone who knows scripture knows all the promises are conditional. Read it again..
                if you do ‘this’ then ‘that’ will happen

                I suppose you’ve never made a promise to anyone. In case you haven’t, this is how it works… You stipulate the conditions, and provided they fulfil their end, you are under no obligation to fulfil yours – you know… promises are conditional… the agreed upon conditions must be met!

                What you’ve unsuccessfully tried to do is put your own incorrect and misleading words in my mouth… which is rather odd.
                Why would you want someone to defend what they never said…

                Like

              • Unfortunately, I gave you more credit for having some knowledge of scripture than you actually do.

                The promise I spoke of was this:
                Peter: “Well it would help if the promises in the Bible were actually fulfilled in reality.

                Me:Peter,
                anyone who knows scripture knows all the promises are conditional. Read it again..
                if you do ‘this’ then ‘that’ will happen.

                Then the reason I went on to speak of abiding in His word is because that particular promise, promises –
                IF, you abide in Me, and my word abide in you…ask what you wish and it will be done for you

                Hence my reason for asking Peter if he is abiding/dwelling/staying in the word…

                In any event, since you clearly want to bring everything back to going to hell… go for it. What’s your issue with hell.
                I noticed you haven’t answered if you’ll begin to let unrepentant killers come to live in your home. That seems an easy question to answer.

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              • Ms. V – unrepentant should be a very familiar word for a ‘neuroscientist’.

                Unrepentant – (adjective) showing no regret for one’s wrongdoing.

                Okay then, please give me the formula for “abiding in Him”?

                Like

              • TA, when you ask “I noticed you haven’t answered if you’ll begin to let unrepentant killers come to live in your home.” — what exactly are you trying to make a comparison with? You see, TA, one of the telling signs of the ignorance of your cultural deity is that it, your deity, is sorely lacking knowledge about the causes of antisocial behavior—you know like the behavior you see in the bible, which are nearly identical to the behaviors from ISIS. One who shows no regret for one’s wrongdoing perfectly describes your cultural deity.

                “Okay then, please give me the formula for “abiding in Him”?

                Lol. Forget the part I said about you lacking in comprehension skills. “Cunning” was the appropriate term. 😉

                Liked by 1 person

              • Ms. V., unlike many I do not ask questions to ‘entrap’… I clearly stated my intent above when I asked that question initially.
                Here it is, a reminder.
                Also, when (and until) you’ve begun admitting unrepentant killers into your home you have no basis for saying God is unfair.

                I believe that was transparent enough?.. no?

                My point all along has been there “is no formula”… it’s you who kept insisting there is.

                I think it’s fair to say you know very little about the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob; however I’m also aware you have no interest in being corrected as your severe willful/otherwise misunderstanding of Him serves your purpose – or so you incorrectly believe.

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              • “Here it is, a reminder.
                Also, when (and until) you’ve begun admitting unrepentant killers into your home you have no basis for saying God is unfair. I believe that was transparent enough?.. no?”

                Essentially, what you’re saying is that it’s perfectly justified for your cultural deity to be a murderous psychopath, having no regrets of his antisocial behavior, because, well, your cultural deity is “THE God (TM)”, and you know this because you are a “True Christian (TM)”.

                The bible is full of formulas on what you must do to please your cultural deity, and escape the lake of fire, and you know it.

                Liked by 1 person

              • Ahhh Ms. V. how did you make such a drastic leap…
                It’s perfectly okay to voice your opinion… I read it, I don’t agree with it.
                It’s not okay to tell me what I’m saying especially when we both know it’s the furthest thing from what I actually said.

                There’s no such thing as a “True Christian”… you’re either a Christian or you’re not.
                One cannot be both alive and dead at the same time. You’re either alive; or you’re dead.

                No, no formulas.
                Just two commands – Love God, love your neighbor/the person you come in contact with.
                If you love your neighbor you’ll not envy them, nor gossip about them, or let them go hungry, etc.

                If you love God, you’ll abide in His word, and you’ll allow His word to abide in you.
                🙂

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              • “No such thing as a true christian…. you either are or you’re not”… lol.. irony alert!!! Hey ancients, that IS the definition of True Christian.

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              • “Also, when (and until) you’ve begun admitting unrepentant killers into your home you have no basis for saying God is unfair.

                My point here is simply this – you accuse God of sending people who do not do what He tells them to do, to hell or correct me if I’m paraphrasing you all wrong.
                Yet, you, I am 100% sure would not admit a bunch of unrepentant killers into your home.
                So, why is it okay for you to deny such people habitation in your domain… yet you call God all kinds of vile names for doing the same.

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              • “So, why is it okay for you to deny such people habitation in your domain… yet you call God all kinds of vile names for doing the same.”

                And one of my points was that your cultural deity was a product of its time when no one, including your cultural deity and its followers, knew the various causes of antisocial behavior. Now we do, which reflects quite poorly on the validity of your cultural deity.

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              • LOL! Ms. V. you make me laugh.
                The various causes of antisocial behavior – not known??
                Really?
                If they weren’t known how could the solutions have been given [in Scripture].

                You want to know the main cause/source of antisocial behavior – pride.
                Hmm… I wonder where that came from.
                Doesn’t matter how many different medical terms are used to describe or define the exact same underpinning.

                Your area of research is quite interesting because the findings actually corroborate with what scripture says – and guess what – as you mockingly but accurately suggest, scripture was written a long time ago.
                Makes the thinking person wonder, how could something so ancient get it so right…. hmmm

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              • Pride you say? I suggest you do some research before you go boasting about your knowledge on what causes antisocial behavior. Here’s a start:

                “Early Brain Damage and Development in Social and Moral Reasoning:

                Children who experience early damage in the prefrontal cortex never completely develop social or moral reasoning. As adults, even on an intellectual level, they cannot refer to such behavior because they have little concept of it. In contrast, individuals with adult-acquired damage are usually aware of proper social and moral conduct, but are unable to apply such behaviors.

                The patients had problems with violence and resembled “psychopathic individuals, who are characterized by high levels of aggression and antisocial behavior performed without guilt or empathy for their victims. Their brains were just not capable of acquiring social and moral knowledge even at a normal level.” —Institute of Neurology in London

                In America alone, someone experiences a traumatic brain injury approximately every 15 seconds. According to the Brain Injury Association, traumatic brain injury is the most frequent cause of disability and death among children and adolescents in the United States. Each year, more than a million children sustain brain injuries in the U.S. Why didn’t your cultural deity educate about traumatic brain injuries? We are just scratching the surface here.

                You see, TA, such ancient beliefs never address the root causes, but rather perpetuate suffering.

                I have the 30 minute video cued 11 seconds in because the beginning is loud. Educate yourself.

                @Mike, sorry for the OT, but his last statement about pride warranted a response of this nature.

                Liked by 1 person

              • Oh Ms. V., you never disappoint. Me thinks you doth project too much 🙂

                Now who is boasting in their pseudo- knowledge.
                Tell me Victoria, which research should I pay attention to:
                -the one that tells me flossing adds years to my life
                -or the one that says flossing is of no use.
                I could go on and on… I hope you get the idea.

                Now back to the issue of childhood brain injury as it relates to anti-social behavior. All you’ve done is given one cause of anti-social behavior.
                I would like to ask though, why then is society still putting people in prison, after all, according to ‘your research du jour’ the main/underlying issue of adult violence & psychopathic behavior is ‘brain injury’- s0 why hold them responsible for their crimes?

                It’s also interesting to note that ‘patients had problems with violence, etc. (all the negatives)’ but never altruistic deeds – why is this?

                You ask now why didn’t your cultural deity educate about traumatic brain injuries?

                Oh but He did! You just need to know where to look for the information.
                That’s all a ‘renewing of the mind is’ – neuroplasticity.
                Do not conform to the ways of the world… what it says can/cannot be done… but transform your life through ‘renewing your mind’- Whatever’s wired in, can be wired out.

                Pride, Ms. V. is thinking you know more than the One who made you. As I like to say, ‘don’t throw away your Creator’s manual for speculation and conjecture.

                You’d be surprised what this ancient text (Scripture) addresses. Science is only ‘catching up’ to what’s been a long settled matter!

                So your long prideful statement is simply you boasting in severely limited, worldly knowledge.

                Like

              • TA, I shared with you that this was just scratching the surface on the causes of antisocial behavior, and I also posted an educational video showing the results of decades of research. This knowledge actually give us hope for humanity and it increases our empathy and compassion. But, it seems to me that you see the worst in humanity, and that speaks volumes about the impact that indoctrination has had on you.

                Abundant evidence shows that when conservative Christians, such as yourself, culminate, well being plummets. There is a higher mortality rate, higher rates of disease, higher rates of teen pregnancy, higher rates of STDs, higher rates of poverty, higher divorce rates, higher rates of mental illness, i.e., depression, higher rates of xenophobia, higher rates of inequality, higher rates of child abuse, higher rates of discrimination, higher rates of violent crimes, higher rates of incarceration, higher high school dropout rates and higher rates of government dependence, i.e., the social safety net.

                Your answer to my reply clearly demonstrates why progress in prevention education is so slow.

                Liked by 2 people

              • Ms. V., since I have no desire to trade insults, nor spend my time correcting your totally incorrect lengthy ‘evils of Christianity’, let me say this instead.

                Thanks for taking the time to converse with me.
                All the best to you.

                Liked by 1 person

              • “All the best to you.”

                If you really mean that, educate yourself. The world will be a better place because of it.

                If you want to see empathy and compassion in action, watch the video.

                “Thanks for taking the time to converse with me.

                Likewise.

                Liked by 1 person

              • I don’t think he has any clue what he’s saying. If he were wishing our best, he wouldn’t be behaving and treating others the way he does. Troll?

                Like

              • Hmmm… A classic example of why your judgment cannot be trusted Kia.

                In your world the repugnant vilification of God and man are just means of ‘getting your point across’.

                Instead of posting on the hypocrisy of others, why not some introspection…
                All the best to you.

                Like

              • You’re asking Deconverted Christians what it means to Abide in Christ? Aside from the irony of the question… You assume we all don’t know and haven’t practiced said abiding in Christ. Thus your rant to Peter about he didn’t do it right. Lol. You’re amazing

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              • Stop trying to obfuscate the issue Kia… there’s no irony here!
                As a matter of fact, a so-called deconvert should be the ideal person to ask such a question of — you know, they know Christianity & Christ

                There you go, negating your own point! (your 3rd sentence).

                Like

              • “Do this” is not and cannot be a formula.

                As your definition said- a formula is a plan, a method of of how you will do a particular thing.

                Your formula/method/plan for making a puppet I’m sure is entirely different from mine.

                Like

              • He’s in a corner on his use of ‘formula’ and his denial of the conditional ‘if’ you do this then… Just doesn’t want to admit it. Double down, ancients. Double down 😉

                Liked by 1 person

              • I’m only going to pop in here for a moment as I’m busy preparing for a 3-week trip … but TA’s comment couldn’t go unanswered.

                TA, you quoted the following scripture — IF, you abide in Me, and my word abide in you…ask what you wish and it will be done for you. There are literally MILLIONS of people who believe they are abiding in “him” and “his” word is abiding in them, yet they ask what they wish … and it never comes to pass.

                Why do you think this is?

                Liked by 1 person

              • Millions’abiding’ and yet committing the greatest of sins and offenses, but forgiven by the blood of Jesus.
                Hallelujah… Where’s Bruce when you need him lol

                Like

              • Not only that but these millions can’t even agree amongstvthemselvea what the right practice of Christian faith and life is… Holy spirit speak with forked tongue

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              • Nan, I think you’ve answered the question.
                Hmmm… and I believe I’m a billionaire…
                Anyway, seriously Nan…it’s fair to think that there are millions of people who believe they are abiding in Him… but how many people do you Nan believe His word is actually abiding in?

                See, it’s easy to claim to be a particular tree… however, the fruits that tree produces will provide the evidence for the claim.

                Liked by 1 person

              • it’s fair to think that there are millions of people who believe they are abiding in Him… but how many people do you Nan believe His word is actually abiding in?

                the fruits that tree produces will provide the evidence for the claim.

                And that’s the point, TA.

                You’ve come across in your comments that you believe YOU are someone who is abiding in him and his word is abiding in you, so are YOUR wishes coming to pass?

                Liked by 1 person

              • How I “come across” is irrelevant… it’s actual fruits that matter.

                Even if I were to answer you directly, there’s no way for you to verify… you’d have to trust the words that I speak… 🙂
                Wouldn’t that be asking too much of you.

                Liked by 1 person

              • Well Kia, my outer-man isn’t there yet, but it’s certainly left.

                My spirit-man, that’s a whole different story. My spirit-man is gal fruit!

                Liked by 1 person

              • Kia, do you think Jesus cared much how He came across to people.
                It’s foolish to live your life by what others think of you, especially fickle, double-minded, untrustworthy people.

                Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit… self-awareness, no!

                Liked by 1 person

              • Yes.. He cared how he came across to others, at least if the story book fiction is even half true. Check yourself against 1 cor 13. Replace the word love with Jesus. Then try replacing love with your name. Does the description still fit?

                Like

              • No, Jesus didn’t care how He came across to others.
                He was giving a speech to a multitude where He declared ‘unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you.
                Even though the people became offended at what He said, and began to leave, Jesus didn’t apologize and soften His tone, neither did He tell them – hey guys, you misunderstand what I’m trying to teach you.
                NO!
                He continued in His ‘offensive-to-them-manner’.
                When they left, He told His disciples -‘do you want to leave also’…

                So while I don’t try to be deliberately offensive… if someone chooses to take offense at what I’ve said… that’s their business.
                Just like the crowd, your judgments are less than stellar.

                Liked by 1 person

              • LOL…
                only some?
                besides, as I’ve said, there’s no such thing as a True Christian. You’re either Christian or none.

                How can you tell my tone via writing. That’s a rather difficult feat.
                Gotta go.

                Like

              • How I “come across” is irrelevant Oh really? How you “come across” is how the world judges you. Now if all you’re worried about is how your god judges you, then I suppose that gives you a pass. But by the same token, aren’t you supposed to be showing your fruits so that others might be saved?

                True, I cannot verify anything if you were to say your wishes were coming to pass, but I’d lay odds that not every one (maybe not any) of them is. And this has nothing to do with the “abide” part. It’s just the nature of the beast.

                Look, TA, the point I’m trying to make is Christians try to place themselves in a Special Place because they have “god” in their lives. Unbelievers say Hogwash. You’ve simply chosen to put your trust and your life in the hands of an invisible entity. Well, so be it. But don’t try to make it out as if you have an inside edge … because you don’t.

                I know you’ll have a response, but I’m afraid I’m done for today. Hope you have a nice week. Maybe we can “converse” at another time. 🙂

                Liked by 1 person

              • Hi Nan,
                Me: How I “come across” is irrelevant… it’s actual fruits that matter.

                The reason it’s irrelevant – you guys have not displayed sound judgment, nor respect [you’ve continuously used the most vile and repugnant names to refer to the Creator], so it would be quite unwise of me to place my trust in how you think I “come across” to you. No?

                Blessed is the man who makes The Lord his trust, and respect not the proud…

                Nan, I am absolutely supposed to show my good works so others can glorify God.
                But who are we kidding here, you guys couldn’t care less about fruits nor glorifying God.

                Your statement on being Special confirmed what I mentioned to you earlier in the week – that has always been one of the problems with those who vilify Christianity.
                They want those who are in Christ to be like them… well, hate it or not, when one is in Christ, they are indeed special, Ahhhhhh! They have a new identity! They are a brand new creature – a new species that never existed before. -Can’t get anymore special than that Nan.

                Don’t gag and hate us – join us 🙂
                Unbelievers have to learn to deal with it as there’s no getting around it. That’s all there is to it.

                So what if one cannot see God.
                You believe in a lot of things that you cannot see physically… so why the double-mindedness?
                Do electromagnetism, gravity, consciousness etc. cease to exist because they’re invisible. You believe in them. What’s the difference.

                Well, I do have an inside edge. I’m in Christ! 🙂 Ahhh! – How special!

                Have a great trip and be safe.

                Like

              • Fruit of the spirit in gal 5 is all about how people come across to others and to God. One needs to be aware and challenging themselves in these areas of character or they become ogres and assholes… Oh hi ancients, I was just talking about you 😉

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              • Do electromagnetism, gravity, consciousness etc. cease to exist because they’re invisible. You believe in them. What’s the difference.

                For one, I don’t talk to them and expect a response —

                Liked by 1 person

              • Leave it to the atheist to not know the difference between a person and electromagnetism/gravity/consciousness.

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              • First: Mike’s descent into profanity is my cue to leave this conversation.

                Second: God is Spirit. He’s also a person. You know, He has feelings, consciousness etc.

                Ciao…

                re: King Nebuchadnezzar. Until either of you can answer my question, please display some integrity with regard to your foolish questioning of Jesus and the historicity of Scripture.

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              • I noticed you haven’t answered if you’ll begin to let unrepentant killers come to live in your home. That seems an easy question to answer.

                Personally, I would far rather allow an unrepentant murderer in my home, than a god who influences others to commit genocide against entire societies, killing men, women and children – even ripping unborn babies out of their mother’s bellies, so that no trace of the society will survive. At least the unrepentant murderer has the integrity to commit the actions with his own hands.

                Liked by 1 person

              • Don’t just allow one arch… and I’m not doing hypotheticals…
                so go ahead, open up your home to all unrepentant murders and we’ll read about you.
                It shouldn’t be – but your talk is cheap, no… 🙂

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              • Yep, a formula. To repeat what he told Peter:

                Peter,
                anyone who knows scripture knows all the promises are conditional. Read it again..
                if you do ‘this’ then ‘that’ will happen.

                Until you’ve done “this” Peter, you basis for complaint is null and void.

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    • Of course you can know the Truth Kia!
      Truth is a person!
      If truth cannot be known, then all you’ve said above cannot be true!

      You’ve dismissed Truth, then gone on to claim how do we know ‘truth’… how unwise.

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  9. Kia: Formula sounds a lot like “do” to me… What of it ancients?

    LOL, Oh Kia! You’ve got to be joking!
    Okay, Do this – build a puppet. [or how about – if you build me a puppet, I’ll give you $100 dollars]
    Since this was Ms. V’s crazy idea, perhaps she could explain to us where in lies the formula.

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  10. After reading all the to and fro on this thread I have concluded that God does indeed work in mysterious ways.

    As I said I tried. The Ancients said that was my problem. I was trying. Well good news my friend, I have stopped trying I will see how that goes.

    Christian folk are always telling me the need is to repent. There was no shortage of repentance in my life. Despite what one may conclude I in no way think highly of myself, indeed I am far more a self hating sort of person who was quite ready to conclude that I was the greatest sinner ever.

    My problem is not repentance it is belief. I just no longer conclude that the Bible is a divine book. As to whether there is a sort of God somewhere I am less certain but I very much doubt that if there is a creative power that such power is revealed in any of the world religions.

    When I look at the world around me, it seems to operate as though either there is no God or if there is a God, then that God is distant.

    Anyway I have concluded that you van’t make yourself believe. Belief just sort of happens.

    In the 18 months since I deconverted I have studied the Christian faith in great depth, because I still harbour a lingering fear of Hell. My further studies confirm to me that it seems man made.

    As I said to the Ancients above, I can do no more. It is just impossible to blindly trust an entity that you don’t think exists, you just can’t do it.

    So as I said before it is over to God, I can do no more.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I get it peter. Folks like ancients, CS, som, James and more … just don’t quite understand. We’ve been where they are. And we’ve even been where they aren’t yet. If it were a matter of effort, devotion, prayer, fasting or any other discipleship/relationship word or concept they can think of…. we’ve been there, and “Mene, Mene, tekel….” found it lacking in reality and truthfulness

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    • Hey pete-
      The answer you seek is much simpler than you can imagine. Like your friend here knowitall, you suffer from a common ailment, not unique to all of us, but first:

      You say the word of God is not a divine book. Really? Perhaps you should reconsider the information that is contained that no man could know……..apart from the Divine.

      The revelation that ‘in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth………’ is not a figment of mans imagination, for man is not quite that smart to give credit to someone other than himself.

      ‘He made the stars also.’ Pure genius in its terseness.

      Now then, what be this answer you seek that clouds your judgment? Easy. It is called rebellion, which is common to mankind. It is not rebellion against the gods of nikon, rayon, kodak, nike, plato, pluto, goofy ,dopey, nope, it is rebellion against the One and only God. There you go. Now have a nice day.

      (and btw, the amount of interest in trying to disprove my initial post is also enough proof of this rebellion)

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      • I am not prone to profanity, but your comment makes me think I should perhaps reassess.

        I really find a comment like yours so disappointing. The thing is your sort of inane contribution just confirms what I have concluded, Christians show no evidence of being transformed or indwelt by the Spirit of the creator of the universe.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Really pete? And what do you know of this transformation? I have read reams of your comments, and well as your brethren who once were supposedly enlightened………and you use the very scriptures you despise to paint others as criminal in character.

          Perhaps you have not noticed, that I include myself in the field of misfits..the difference being, I recognize rebellion, and I am well aware of the treacherous deeds of the human heart, yes, even my own.

          I at least give deference to the Creator who has explained the human race perfectly. Grow up already and stop your griping. I am consistent and you know it.

          Liked by 1 person

          • ”I am consistent and you know it”
            We can agree on that!

            The issue is not your consistency; it is whether or not you are correct.

            We have both looked at the same evidence and reached different conclusions.

            Liked by 2 people

            • Tkx for that pete. At least you recognize the evidence.

              In my case it is incontrovertible. You need to come to terms tho pete, with the masterpiece called life, and whether it is a grand accident.

              Apart from the Creator, that’s the sad fact. You are not an accident are you?

              Liked by 1 person

              • Mike-
                With each comment of yours, the argument of life apart from God sinks further and further into oblivion……

                ….meanwhile the truth of life, the truth of arithmetic, the truth of seven days in the week, the truth of 24 hrs in the day, all confirm the genius of God, and His word stands unmoved, like a Rock………..

                ……..male and female created He them.

                You will NEVER win an argument against scripture. You may as well flick your bic and say you made the sun hotter……..

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              • But it is the kingdom of His patience!

                Our mouths ARE stopped when we pretend God does not exist.

                Our mouths ARE stopped when we strut our foolishness and rebellion.

                The words may continue, but rest assure, they are stopped.

                Liked by 1 person

              • And btw, not even atheists say God doesn’t exist. Atheists don’t believe he exists, it’s your burden to prove he does, not ours to prove your God doesnt

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              • Wake thou that sleepest………….wake up………I have life for evidence that God is.

                What is your evidence for no God? And please do not mention the scriptures as they indict you one hundred per cent.

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              • No sir, you have faith that life was originated by your particular biblical God, no actual evidence than your belief that it is so. Muslims use the same for their god. Would you grant them the same validity of interpretation? I doubt it.

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              • Uh mike, you know the scriptures are the word of God, for you travel at great lengths to dismiss it, while leaving the dry blogs of mus-lims alone.

                God has no competitors except in the minds of the lawless.

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              • Uh mike, you know the scriptures are the word of God

                No, CS, as I’ve told you repeatedly, the scriptures are the words of men, reputedly reporting the words of their god – at no point in the entire Bible, does your god ever pen a chapter.

                Liked by 1 person

              • If I had the time (and the inclination), I could list a thousand gods, invented by men who believed that their god, specifically, created the universe, but just as Colorstorm’s, none would be true.

                Liked by 1 person

              • Arch, I did a post earlier about CS’s taunt that God would stop the mouths of those who oppose the biblical god.
                Oh yeah… STILL TALKING!!

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              • “….meanwhile the truth of life, the truth of arithmetic, the truth of seven days in the week, the truth of 24 hrs in the day, all confirm the genius of God, and His word stands unmoved, like a Rock………..

                ……..male and female created He them.”

                I keep asking myself – do you KNOW so little, or do you simply refuse to accept what you’ve learned? WE – Humankind – decided on the 7-day week, it’s completely arbitrary, and the hours in the day depend on the circumference of the earth and the velocity of it’s rotation – actually, it’s gradually slowing down.

                As for sexual reproduction, -“male and female” – it was billions of years before that come along —

                Liked by 1 person

          • Faith can be a virtue or a curse. It really depends whether what one has faith in is true or not.

            Some Christians have concluded that their God promises to heal the sick and consequently refuse medical treatment for their children. They conclude that to do otherwise is to lack faith. The consequences of this misplaced faith is very sad. Yet if consistency is a virtue as CS suggests then such folk are surely more consistent than those Christians that seek medical attention.

            I see little point in me trying to engage in a discussion with CS. Perhaps I am wrong in my understanding of the Bible and faith, but my argument is that I am prepared to consider that there is a possibility I am wrong. Those who suggest that there is no possibility they are wrong, such as CS, are ironically less likely to ever find truth than those who are prepared to admit they might be in error.

            To admit that one is not certain of their position and is open to reconsider is not a weakness but rather a strength.

            CS thinks that there is great wisdom from God in the Bible and this proves it is divine, yet he fails to understand that much of the wisdom teaching he so values comes from other cultures and was not original to the Jews or Jesus.

            Liked by 3 people

      • “The revelation that ‘in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth………’ is not a figment of mans imagination, for man is not quite that smart to give credit to someone other than himself.”

        Yes, it is. It was written by Aaronid priests in captivity in Babylon in the 5oo’s BCE, and intended to replace the more anthropomorphic god of Gen 2 (which then was Gen 1 – Get it? Got it! Good!) Later, the Redactor didn’t know which version to choose, so retained them both.

        Liked by 1 person

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