Questions for Christians this Easter Weekend: Forgiveness for a Price 

If the one who is wronged punishes Himself on behalf of the criminal to secure Forgiveness for him… couldn’t He just Forgive without the Self abuse?


And if Justice is ‘meeted out’ by actually punishing not the Criminal but rather the Victim of his crime, is that really Justice?

The story is supposed to be about God giving people an opportunity to Return to Him by Forgiving their offences and wiping the slate clean.

If God then takes the punishment on Himself for offenses done to Himself, can He not… Just Forgive all those who simply come without the Kabuki Theater of a Human Blood sacrifice OF Himself TO Himself FOR Himself?

If He is God, then He can.  He could have chosen to do whatever he wanted to do for the Salvation of mankind, the clearing of the Debt.  Or do you say He is Limited and Restricted in His options? Then perhaps He is not worthy of the Title.

You agree then that He’s not limited or restricted? The question then becomes, If He could have… why didn’t He…

Just Forgive? He asks us to Forgive our enemies without revenge or recompense. Is He unable or unwilling to “do as I say” or is it “not as I do”?

Forgiveness forgives without punishment, price or recompense to anyone involved. If your concept of God “requires human blood sacrifice” even of Himself, to Himself for Himself… It’s not true forgiveness, but just another Pagan Human Blood Sacrifice of someone who didn’t commit the crime and therefore isn’t liable for the Payment. Your cries for “God’s Justice” to be fulfilled by the death of an innocent man on a cross he didn’t deserve become Injustice and an Unjust Death at the hands of other men, but by the Design and Determination of your “Just” God.

Why not just Forgive… Like He requires us to do?

-kia

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38 thoughts on “Questions for Christians this Easter Weekend: Forgiveness for a Price 

    • Hi-

      Reasonably or logically disagree? Sure. It’s easy.

      Forgiveness would have no value unless something valuable is involved.
      Something valuable WAS involved. It’s called context. It’s knowing the egregiousness of criminals. It’s understanding the sinlessness of a man who while being God, became sin.

      It’s all there in the scriptures, free for the taking.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Hi cs. Since you don’t actually care whether the story is true in any actual historical way that can be confirmed or denied by sources outside of the Bible itself, I’ll assume you are just as deluded about reality as the Heavens Gate group that killed themselves in expectation of being ‘beamed up’ by the spaceship following the Hale Bopp Comet. Your assertions and declarations are duly and appropriately noted.
        Happy Easter.

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        • Hey mike-
          Would it reasonable or unreasonable of you to seek golf advice from a cookbook?

          There is your answer. This is why the accounts of scripture are self proving. They need no help or verification.

          It you do not think so, it is your loss, and God’s word still stands as resolute as ever.

          Next thing you know, you will cryin that the Exodus never occurred, and your proof is that Moses sandals were never found.

          I’ll take scripture every time, and you keep your cookbook.

          Liked by 1 person

      • A swing and a miss. I understand that from your perspective, the scriptures are unquestionable. But for an agnostic like myself who was raised by devout Christian parents, I can assure you, I’m quite familiar with Testaments New and Old. I also don’t find any veracity in them whatsoever. So a logical debate can’t consist of directing someone to a book he or she may very well have already read and found 100% unconvincing. It’s like defining a word by using the same word.

        Liked by 1 person

        • You said:

          —-I also don’t find any veracity in them whatsoever.—-

          Thus has your credibility just gone to zero. No credibility eh?

          So the Euphrates river is not credible?
          The city of Jerusalem is not credible?
          The wisdom of Solomon is neither good nor credible?

          Rats being not a very good source for food is not credible?

          Doves travelling in pairs even to this day is not credible?

          Jericho, Joppa, Damascus are not cities that are credible?

          I can do this all night, but you have embarrassed yourself enough already.

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          • Cs, credibility belongs to those who have an honest mind to evaluate truths based on reality and evidence. You have proven over and over, you are not one of those people. Have a great Easter, cs

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          • If you were capable of nuanced thought, you would have realized I wasn’t referring to the sketchy history contained therein, but the hocus pocus and the moral decrees handed down by “god” when they were so clearly designed to keep people in line and in fealty to their theocratic monarchs. What you call “God’s word” actually wins so many arguments because most of us give up halfway through the debate…it’s like trying to argue with a drunk. They won’t listen and they will repeat themselves endlessly.

            Liked by 1 person

            • DC, it’s not even that were saying “hath god really said?” It’s more like god didn’t say. If a god ever wrote a book or books that he expected all men, everywhere, in all times to understand and be able to discern what he was like and what he wanted from and for us… there would be no room for interpretation, differences of belief and practice, and it would be so clear in every language that it would undeniably be the word of God. Better yet, why stoop to the lowly tool of writing and books in the first place? Bam!! He places his thoughts into ours instantaneously.
              The Bible is undeniably and irredeemably the words of me about their god. It is not the word of God nor is it unassailable and undefeated.
              Cs wants to believe that because it reassures him that he’s right and everyone else is wrong. But as is usually the case is such arrogant and condescending assertions, it is quite the opposite. Simply… he’s afraid of it being any other than what he’s already accepted.

              Liked by 1 person

              • peter, i agree. such is the situation i was in at one time too. i took time away from a church environment with access to other information and ideas to break me out of that prison.

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  1. The idea that God had to punish Jesus with all the wrath saved up for us naughty sinners is an idea thought up by St Ansem in the 11th century, and it would probably seem as weird to Paul and the first 1000 years worth of Christians as it does to me and you. Don’t believe me? Ask an Eastern Orthodox Christian about the meaning of Jesus, and you won’t hear anything about punishment. They split with Catholics long before the birth of Anselm, the theologian who injected that nonsense into Western Christianity (including Protestantism, which grew out of Catholicism).
    If God cares so much about us, you’d expect God to want to be more concerned with teaching us to get along with each other, right? Forgiveness doesn’t solve the pain we continue to cause each other. New Creation (the primary meaning Paul saw in the Resurrection, by the way) is what we really need. Happy (almost) Easter!

    Liked by 1 person

    • Happy Easter to you too tyler. I always appreciate your comments. So… you don’t believe that the death of Christ Was a Substitutionary atonement?

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      • Thanks! I love the stuff you write about religion, and I’m always confused by the angry Christians who get offended and leave nasty comments. No, penal substitutionary atonement seems like a pretty terrible idea to me, and I don’t understand why something so clearly non-biblical is fiercely believed by so many conservative Christians. I honestly don’t see the draw.

        Liked by 1 person

  2. Well Mike… God could have just forgiven sinners who come to Him with a repentant heart, and godly sorrow… We are never to question God for why He does things as He does…

    But I believe Jesus had to take on the sins of the world, and shed His blood, giving redeemed Christians Christ’s righteousness in place of their sins… God looks at His redeemed children, and sees Christ’s righteousness in us…

    The other point here, is that Jesus had to die, so that He could rise again to defeat Satan and the sin of the world… Our eternal hope lies in the fact that Jesus did defeat death…so that we too can defeat the second death when Christ comes back for the 1000 year millennium…

    Our love and devotion to the Lord has been enhanced, because we realise what Christ did for us… This is why Jesus instituted communion, so that we would never forget His sacrifice for our salvation…

    Have a blessed Easter Sunday !!

    bruce

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    • Cs, how is it justice to punish an innocent man for the crimes of another? And wasn’t what Jesus did a kind of ‘suicide by Roman soldier’?
      Is suicide acceptable in the bible?

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    • As far as your admission, cs, that God could have forgiven without the death of an innocent man… thank you for at least THAT much honesty.
      As far as not questioning why he didn’t just forgive… you’re still as dishonest and Cowardly a Lion as ever. You refuse to think for yourself.

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    • ‘We are never to question God for why He does things as He does…’

      Yes makes sense. The issue is we are not questioning God, rather we are questioning whether there is a God, or more specifically whether the Bible reveals the words and actions of the creator God.

      So Bruce, this is why we question whether what ‘God’ does and demand in the Bible makes sense and is moral. If the Bible contains questionable morality then it casts doubt on it coming from a divine entity.

      At the most basic level, the idea of eternal punishment in Hell needs to be challenged. A God that determines that is the outcome for those who are not graced with salvation could not be seen as moral. I tire of Christians saying that all humanity deserves eternal torture in Hell. Anyone who says such a horrendous thing is truly deluded. It becomes worse if you conclude that God selects those who will be saved and that others have no chance of avoiding Hell.

      Make no mistake if the Bible is true then God created Hell and God created Satan. God let Satan into the Garden of Eden, God allowed Adam and Eve to be tempted. Because of these actions of God, a child born who is not selected by God for salvation will be tortured for all eternity after death no matter how good they live their life.

      A loving God would not allow those who are not to be graced with salvation to ever be born. A loving God would not make Hell eternal. A loving God would not make Hell torture. A loving God would allow those not graced with salvation to cease to exist after death (perhaps a limited time of reflection in the wrongs of this life could warranted, but nothing eternal and not torture).

      If the idea of God selecting those who are to saved is true and it has nothing to do with the merit of those people but is God’s sovereign choice then it makes God into a deity of questionable morality.

      As I said at the start I am not really questioning God, rather I am looking at the evidence in the Bible and concluding that the picture it paints of God is not consistent with a just and loving deity.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Peter, the Bible tells us that God doesn’t want anyone to perish…

        2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. (ESV)

        The only sin that leads to eternal death, is the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit…

        Matthew 12:31-32… Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (ESV)

        Peter, every time you hear (or have heard the gospel of Christ preached), The Holy Spirit is at work to change your will… You don’t accept Christ…It is the will of God…

        John 1:10-13… He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

        But Peter, you have to believe with all of your heart, mind, and soul…that God is real…and that God will save sinners who repent of their sins with godly sorrow and a contrite heart…

        One has to look past all the evidence that Satan uses to poison the minds of all unbelievers… Of all those who read these blogs by Ark, Violet, and Kia…I truly believe you want to believe in eternal life in heaven… But you must step out in faith, that God will grace you with salvation…

        I continue to pray for about 20 of you every day…

        bruce

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  3. I used to wonder how 3 hours on the cross by one man was sufficient to pay the price for the sins of the world.

    This especially puzzled me because those who were not saved were to be tortured for eternity for their individual sins and even that would never pay the price. Just seemed all out of proportion to me.

    I realise the Christian argument is to do with Jesus being God in flesh and an eternal being. But really the proportionality is so much out of whack.

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  4. The funny thing is I used to believe it all, indeed I even summarised my rationale for the whole business back in 2010.

    The following is a summary of my views from seven years ago.
    ‘My Christian Beliefs
    It is by looking to the Cross that see the central elements of Christianity. On the Cross we see the coming together of God’s:
    • Holiness;
    • Justice;
    • Mercy; and
    • Love.

    God is Holy so He cannot allow sin into His presence, the only characteristic of God that is repeated three times in the Bible is his Holiness. God is Just so He cannot just overlook sin and pretend it never happened, the price for sin has to be paid. God is Merciful so He wants us to be able to avoid paying this dreadful price for our sin. God is Loving so He determined to pay the price for our sin himself – by coming to this earth in the person of Jesus and offering himself as a perfect sacrifice.

    Our salvation is only possible through Jesus, the created Word of God in Human form, fully human yet fully divine. We have no basis to stand before God except by the blood of Jesus. We are saved by faith alone not be works. It is by God’s grace alone: we can offer God nothing that He does not already have, it is His good pleasure to give us salvation as a free gift, but we still need to receive this gift. The heart of Christianity is not ritual but us yielding ourselves to Jesus and Him living in our heart, not just as our Saviour but also as our Lord.

    If we do not show evidence of works of love and obedience to God then we should question whether we have really given our heart to Jesus. If Jesus lives in our heart then His love will flow from us to others and be manifested in works of sacrificial love. We are not saved by these works; rather they are evidence of our saving faith in Jesus and our transformed nature.

    God is by nature merciful and forgiving and I believe will forgive all who truly repent. However repentance involves a real change of heart and a desire in our heart to obey God. This does not, however, mean that we will not fail in the future. As we yield ourselves to the Holy Spirit, we become more like Jesus. We will not reach perfection on this earth – but our time here is training and developing us for eternity.

    Judgement and hell are a reality that awaits all humanity except that we cover our sins with the blood of Jesus. It is only the Holy Spirit that can act in the human heart to convince people of their sin and their need for forgiveness. I do not know what happens to those who have not heard the Gospel, there are some things that it s not for us to know. What I do know is that we are commanded to preach the Gospel to all people.

    Because God has given us free will, much of what happens on earth is not His will. God appears to have chosen to work in this world through prayer; the Holy Spirit will prompt us to pray in accordance with God’s will. All Christian activity should be bathed in prayer.

    The Bible is the inspired word of God. Whilst God works through the Agency of people, He is powerful enough to ensure that the finished product is correct. However the Bible should be used for its correct purpose, which is not as a scientific text book, but rather to reveal God to humanity and proclaim the path of salvation through Jesus.

    Christianity is a social religion. We are the bodies through which Jesus is taken to the World. We are called to be in the world, but not of it. Whilst we can often minister effectively to others, most people struggle to minister to themselves. It is a way God can keep us humble.’

    Sigh!

    But for those who doubt my credential of having been a true believer, just ponder that I really believed all of this once. I suppose at least I avoided the worst of the Calvinist extremes.

    Liked by 2 people

    • “It is only the Holy Spirit that can act in the human heart to convince people of their sin and their need for forgiveness.”… ” However the Bible should be used for its correct purpose, which is not as a scientific text book, but rather to reveal God to humanity and proclaim the path of salvation through Jesus.”

      Peter, I couldn’t have said it any better !! Just one piece missing… Forget about science and all that looks to put down God…and believe by saving faith alone…

      bruce

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  5. Once I really thought about it, the idea that god made a human, his own son, with the plan to let him die a painful slow death to save other humans from doing things that god said humans can’t do, but does nothing to prevent them from doing…is horrible and disgusting and unnecessary. God so loved his only son that he let him suffer an embarrassing and painful slow death?
    Well, I’m glad MY dad calls himself a pagan. He’d be more likely to give me a hug and some plants from his garden. Seems much more loving to me.

    Liked by 1 person

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