Life without Jesus a Disaster?

(((Update:  Bruce also has a wonderful response post to Dax on his blog as well. Why not check his out HERE. -kia)))

——

In answer to a recent post by a bogging buddy, Dax 

I’ll take science and knowledge over fear and ignorance any day. 

When your Faith tells you that your life is meaningless and a disaster, when it tells you that your life has no value or purpose but what the God of the Bible assigns, when people who are bound and still chained in Plato’s Cave encourage you to stay satisfied and content in your prison of Shadows and Darkness rather than venture out into the Light and Freedom of Reality… as it really is.

Fear Trumps, they’re counting on it 

They are expressing their own fear that you might be free, have meaning, purpose, value and worth apart from their delusion. And they’re afraid that it might be possible for them too… but they are too afraid of the unknown and uncertainty to take that chance.

The happy delusion becomes the ‘lesser of two evils’

  • The evil that it might all really be a delusion

Vs

  • the evil that it might all really be a delusion… but I’m happy and content not knowing, and too afraid to find out.

We know which one “wins” for most people trapped in the clutches of a Loving God who also threatens Eternal Torture for not ‘loving’ Him back…

The Devil you know, vs the one you don’t always has the stronger appeal.

But you don’t have to live in fear, ignorance and delusion that your life has no value, worth, purpose or meaning without absolute and total submission to a God who asks your for Faith in lieu of Evidence for His existence.

Break the chains, get up and walk out of the cave into the bright light of… Reality. Recovery Awaits!!

-kia

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369 thoughts on “Life without Jesus a Disaster?

  1. Thanks for responding. I get your argument here as it is based on reason and rationale but that’s not faith. Faith requires belief with limited knowledge and understanding. We tend to write off what we don’t understand. We sure don’t want to be accountable to an entity that can condemn us. I actually think that unbelief stems from fear.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I’m not afraid of that happening at all. The God of the Bible can no more condemn me than spiderman could swoop down in the middle of town to wrap me up in webbing or gandalf could turn my into a goblin. None of them actually exist in reality. They are all just fictions created by men. Whey else would you need to induce fear… of a meaningless, purposeless, valueless life or a threat of Eternal condemnation to motivate people to ‘love’ their loving God back… or else? Think about it, Brother. Sorry, headed to sleep. 245a comes pretty early in the morning

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    • @Dax
      Once you are prepared to put in the spade work and truly work to wards understanding how and why Christianity came about you will quickly realise why it is built entirely upon a foundation of lies, designed solely to control.

      And the easiest ones to control are those who willingly put the handcuffs on themselves. No Jailer Required.

      Just like you , in fact.

      Liked by 2 people

      • right on, ark. as to dax’s comment that it’s unbelievers that fear condemnation, so they just don’t believe to avoid ‘the truth’, one would never have to fear something that doesn’t induce the fear in the first place. dan barker’s thing about “you don’t have to go down into my basement…” is the perfect illustration.
        the god iof the bible is NOT a loving god. not at all

        Liked by 1 person

      • Ark i miss you. Or maybe you don’t have the knowledge or study to truly know the foundation of Christianity except the bias reports you read. How can you know your study is more authentic than mine? My whole education has been centered around the manuscripts and history of the Bible and its people. I know there are some discrepancies but to say it completely unravels is not where my study has taken me

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        • Well first my book is evidence.
          But as always, I am quite prepared to stand under correction , and also make public apology if you can produce a single piece of verified evidence for the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth.

          The floor is your, Dax, away you go …

          Liked by 2 people

          • Ark, you are correct. The correct phrasing is ‘for the biblical jesus’. Even if there was a ‘jesus’ or Joshua or Jewish reformer/messianic rabbi who lived and died at the hands of the romans, there is no evidence that the ‘character’ portrayed in the nt was the same person or ever walked the earth doing miracles, raising the dead or Resurrecting.
            No first hand, unbiased, 1st century contemporary secular historians to record the Greatest Story Ever Sold to humanity.

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              • Well Ark in Dax’s defense at least he appears ready for a discussion based on evidence. This is refreshing compared to some other Christian blogging folk.

                Over at the Lions Den our friend ColorStorm is showing his true colours and arguing for a flat earth. John Zande and tildeb are seeking to show the stupidity of this position but the Lion seems to exalt in his ignorance. What puzzles me more is that a couple of the other Christians on the site (thankfully not all) support CS.

                I always thought CS was a nutter and this is proof positive. I categorically state that any person in the modern world who argues for a flat earth deserves all the scorn they receive.

                Liked by 2 people

          • I can’t produce evidence. I have no pictures or movie clips here. Just like you can’t produce evidence he didn’t exist. But what is your background to be an expert on this subject?

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      • I wonder what primary sources you have studied? To do so you need to be versed in koine and Semitic languages. Are you? I have studied these primary sources. Not secondary sources that write from their bias to prove their “theory.” Honest scholarship deals with primary sources and takes years of study to be able to do so. When you have done that we can have more of a discussion on foundational issues

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        • What primary sources? There are no genuine primary sources.
          But if you have uncovered some then I will personally nominate you for a Nobel Prize in ancient archaeology.

          However, if you are referring to the gospels … well then, if you have studied them then you are fully aware that they are nothing but Hand-Me- Downs, replete with interpolation, and forgery.

          So exactly about the primary sources would you like to discuss? As you seem to be claiming some sort of scholastic bent, that is?

          Liked by 2 people

          • I don’t claim anything. I have a PhD in the are and have studied this for most of my adult life. If your sources are second and third sources removed then how is that really an argument from you. Have you looked at these things directly or from internet and popular reads. That’s not true scholarship. And how can you say that about the languages if you can’t read them. Sure there are textual variants but can you question its veracity without giving an honest and careful study of DSS, P literature, Textus Receptus, Q, and many other sources?

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              • Yes in Greek language and biblical backgrounds. It’s what I do. I don’t feel the burden of proof is on me with you for this reason… we don’t know each other and can’t meet face to face. Trying to argue and show things here would be fruitless. If you are ever in my area Ian would be honored to meet up with you and discuss face to face at rhisnkevel

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              • Specifically what ”biblical backgrounds” is you PHD in , please?

                You feel confident enough to post about it and make sweeping claims and now when asked for evidence you balk!
                How is one supposed to take anything you say seriously when you hand wave at the first hurdle?
                May I ask are you a Young Earth Creationist?
                (You may have mentioned this before but it is a considerable while since we last had any dialogue.)

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              • I have been to several places:

                Union University- Greek major
                Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary- Masters of Divinity with emphasis in biblical languages
                Duke University- Masters in Theology
                Samford University- Doctorate in Biblical languages and emphasis in NT background

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              • Perhaps …
                As a highly educated individual in the areas of biblical study, how do you deal with the fact that the Pentateuch is now regarded as simply historical fiction and especially the biblical account of Exodus?

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              • Absolutely nothing above my ability to read including between the lines and exercise commonsense.
                More than this I am merely an unwashed heathen I’m afraid.

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              • It’s not regarded that way by many scholars and JEDP is no longer considered as the valid lens to read the Pentateuch. Your question is bias and uneducated

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              • I am talking from an archaeological perspective.
                You are aware of the internal settlement pattern and such things as the dating of Jericho?
                I presume you don’t simply pander to biblical literalism and explore outside these confines?

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              • I do explore outside some but scholarship is highly focused on an area so I study little except in my area of languages and NT. Give me a source and I will investigate this. I of course have heard of debate on it but have not read up on it

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              • I am surprised that you being so involved with Christianity have not at least investigated it?
                The geopolitical fiction of the Pentateuch has been known for a long time.

                Be that as it may …

                To start, you can look up anything by Israel Finkelstein and William Dever.
                There are several excellent videos presented by both these gentlemen so you don’t even have to fork out any had earned shekels for their books, if you don’t want to.
                As a point of interest, Dever used to be a Christian ( his father was a minister) until the evidence uncovered through archaeology showed the Pentateuch and especially the Exodus account to be erroneous.

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              • I am aware both those scholars and have read some of their work. I have investigated it some but it doesn’t get much traction in my field. I will investigate further

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              • Really?
                Why would fact not get much traction?
                Surely you are after uncovering the truth like everyone else?

                I mean, you can’t seriously believe the Exodus tale as written in the bible.

                You don’t do you?

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              • You have an interesting way of making your point. It’s not fact. It’s theory. Many variables come into play. Yes I do believe in the historical occurrence of Exodus

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              • You have a phd , and yet you are a religious fundamentalist.
                Interesting.
                Exactly what evidence can you present which refutes the internal settlement pattern?
                Or the dating of Jericho.

                Yes I do believe in the historical occurrence of Exodus

                But do you beleive in the Biblical account of Exodus as related in the bible?

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              • Very good resource here: The article โ€œExodus Evidence: An Egyptologist Looks at Biblical Historyโ€ from the May/June 2016 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review

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              • I am not a member. This link merely opens at Google.
                Have you even read it or did you simply type something in the search bar?
                You claim to have read some of Finkelstein and Dever.
                What about their work do you disagree with and on what basis?

                Liked by 1 person

              • Interesting. By the way, question: what do you think about God killing David and bathsheba’s first child rather than punishing David for his rape of her, adultry against his wife and her husband and murder of Uriah?
                Was god moral to strike the Innocent newborn sick, make it suffer for 7 days, then kill it to cover for David and protect the messianic line?
                Do you think killing a newborn is moral?

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              • I think it is a tough story. I think if God did it in that case it was right. I need to look but I believe David says he will see him again which implies that God did bring the kid into eternity

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              • Dax, apparantly the god of the Bible isn’t god either. If that God is all good, then by his actions against that child, he has disqualified himself from the title

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              • Dax, but when he takes the life of a newborn, after causing it to suffer 7 days, for the purpose of NOT punishing David for rape, adultery and murder… he is neither good or just or merciful.

                Liked by 1 person

              • Dax, that like saying you have the right to kill your own children if they disobey you, or if you just feel like it, as long as they are still under your roof…

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              • If we are gods children and we are to love our children like he loves us… why would He not love us the way we would love our children?
                Why would he have the right to kill for any reason he sees fit it we dont?

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              • No. An evil god would but not the god you believe in or the one I believed in. We were both deceived if you think that God has the ‘right’ to kill simply because he has the ‘power’ to

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              • It would be an evil god to torture and kill a newborn baby in order NOT to punish a rapist, adulterer, and murder. An evil god indeed

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              • Then dax, you gave not only a mind of mush but also the morals of a brown shirtted geschtapo soldier.
                If God’s morality is our standard… why isn’t he moral according to the standard he requires of us?

                Liked by 1 person

              • I have respect for you. Your views are another thing. Views are views, yours are wrong, doesn’t mean you have to be wrong. Just be open to more than you have been taught.
                You are probably a great guy, good father and husband. I really do admire the efforts and time you took to accomplish what you have. But you’re wrong.
                When someone doesn’t respect your views, it doesn’t always mean they don’t respect you.

                Liked by 1 person

              • Accredited school. Samford University in Birmingham. My degree is legit. It’s not like a mail in or something. I had to write a dissertation and oral comps. It is in biblical languages

                Liked by 1 person

              • No my final is a PhD for dissertation completed and oral exams passed. I did take classes at BEESON so am considered an alumni in their DMin program as welk

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              • It’s says Doctorate of Ministry from Samford University. It is their terminal degree. My dissertation was on Fasting. I am considered Dr Hughes and am qualified to teach in academic settings. My emphasis has been in ancient languages from my Undergraduate on. It is what I have studied as my focus

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              • Dax, if this is the case and your PhD is in ministry, not ancient languages as you say… your trying to ‘borrow’ authority that you don’t actually have for purely polemical reasons. Not very honest or humble brother.
                So.. what is it? Does Samford actually have a doctorate of ancient languages with emphasis on nt that they’re not displaying on their own website, or are you fudging a bit?

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              • My emphasis was on ancient languages. I apologize if came across deceiving. I refer to Doctorate that way. Not trying to trick anyone. This is not a job interview. I am stating that I have studied the ancient languages as my emphasis which I have

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              • You were trying to appeal to a doctorate you don’t hold to claim greater authority in a discussion. Doesn’t get more deceptive and dishonest than that, especially not from a Doctor of Ministry in the name of Jesus

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              • I wrote blogs. I don’t claim to be the absolute authority on all languages and biblical knowledge. I am not trying to deceive. I do have a doctorate and have written a dissertation. I have had countless hours in Greek and He few stidies

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              • Dax,

                You should just have clearly stated that you have a doctor of ministry. See how simple that would have been? I have Fibromyalgia — 19 years now. I have read virtually every book on the subject of Fibromyalgia. My family doctor told me that I know more than he does about the subject. During his training, they talked about Fibromyalgia for one class. That’s it! Should I, based on my extensive study and focus, consider myself a medical doctor? Of course not. You are claiming that which you do not own. You may know a lot about Biblical languages, but you do not have the requisite study/degree necessary to say you have a doctorate in Greek/Hebrew/Church History.

                Bruce

                Liked by 2 people

              • See dax, you just can’t simply let it rest. You can’t simply admit when you’ve been caught exaggerating your credentials, in the work world you’d be fired and possibly sued for fraud. But I’m more genial than that.

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              • Ok I should have said Doctorate. Like I said not trying for a job here. You guys don’t see me as authoritative no matter what. I do have extensive study in the languages. Believe it or choose not too.

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              • Dax, you lost almost all of your credibility and authority not because of our preconceptions, not because ‘no matter what’. You lost cred because you were willing to stretch the truth and rely on our ignorance to anything different.
                You counted on our not checking out what you claimed. You relied on our better angels to just believe you. That is the heart of dishonesty and deception. Taking advantage of what someone doesn’t know to control what they believe about you, the Bible, god, and the most important questions mankind asks.
                You didn’t think anyone would push you to tell the actual doctorate, so you stretched a degree in ministry with a dissertation on fasting… into a doctorate of ancient languages and textual criticism…
                Pride buddy, hurts don’t it?

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              • My dissertation on fasting is published and engages the languages. My background is on ancient languages and textual criticism. If I have lost any credibility I will leave the discussion as probably useless anyway. Nice knowing you KIA and wish you the best

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              • Now comes the disengage for safety and the last snippy parting shot across the bow.
                Exchanging honestly and openly with folks who disagree with you and with whom you disagree is part of life and a big part of growth and adulthood.
                Don’t let your fear keep you stunted just because you don’t want to know you’re wrong sometimes.
                Pride buddy, it gets worse the further you try to run away. Peace. You’re welcome anytime. Even for coffee if you’re ever in the Phoenix az area.

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              • Dax, what I respect more than anything is honesty. Unfortunately, you probably still don’t realize how dishonest you were being or even why you were being dishonest. Pride does that. I hope and wish good things for you and your family as well. Recovery Awaits. -kia

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              • Reality is just fine. Faith is for those who don’t ‘know’ but still want to ‘believe’ they do anyway.
                Uncertainty is really a bi+@#, it’s scary and I’d really love the comfort of thinking it’s all sorted for me… but that’s not reality. It’s extended adolescence and stunted wholeness.
                Recovery doesn’t mean reinsertion into the Christian matrix. It means recovery of myself and all I can be here and now, in the Real world.
                I pass.

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              • I realize that being a Senior Pastor and having degrees doesn’t make me anything special. I realize I have pride and can make myself look better than I am and can be defensive. I realize these things and it makes me understand even more why I need God in my life. Do you see faults in yourself? Do you have it all figured out? I don’t claim that I do. I desire to live for Him because He has loved me and been gracious to me. I am not embarrassed to say it. I don’t think it is mindless or a crutch. I think it is freedom

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              • That is a baseless comment, Dax. “God loves me”. HOW do you know? And how do you know that the god you love is the one whom you think loves you? You are repeating a mantra, Dax. Did you actually read anything Bruce wrote and THINK about those things? Tell the truth.

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              • Did you actually think about what I wrote and think about these things? Tell the truth. I read Bruce’s. You have sin in your life. You know there is more to life than what you can see. You deny the one who created you. Not mantra. It’s truth and you need to hear it. It transformed me and it can for you too. You need what God offers.

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              • Dax, we have tangled about this topic before, on someone else’s blog. No, I do not have sin in my life. I make mistakes, which is the human condition. I do not need an invisible friend and I know I have told you this before. You do not know what I need at all. You are repeating what you’ve had drilled into your head. Start thinking for yourself. (I think I have suggested that before, too)

                Liked by 1 person

              • I studied this and came to it. It was not drilled in my head. Quit buying into the antagonistic jargon you have made your god . Sure I know what you need. It is the same thing all humans need. We need the Lord

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              • Dax,
                God/the Lord — it’s a figment of your imagination. Really. Why do you think you have to close your eyes when you pray?? It’s a prerequisite to PRETEND.

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              • It’s true Carmen. You were born with it just like me. It doesn’t make us less human. It just shows the wickedness of our heart. God is the only one Holy and we fall short of His glory. It’s truth

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              • It seems, Dax, that God in the bible is afflicted as well. Be killed the newborn baby instead of David… that is evil,even if God did it

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              • For all we know the Baby could have been diseased and God was sparing it. We don’t know. And even if he weren’t God chose to take the baby. If that baby is with God now is it really punishment?

                Liked by 1 person

              • No dax, the Bible Clearly says that God struck the child with illness, it suffered for 7 days and then died. No mystery there, only your unwillingness to deal with it

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              • The baby was innocent in the story, David was the guilty. No. The baby wasn’t punished. It was unjustly and cruelly tortured and killed by God

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              • God did not ‘take’ the baby… he struck a newborn baby with illness, let it suffer for 7 days, then killed it. In order to NOT punish david for his crimes of rape, adultry and murder. He didn’t ‘take’, he killed. And anyone else who did like wise would have been judged by you as a psychotic monster, not a good god

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              • What David did was egregious and he punished him in the worst way by taking his son. David’s picture of grief is profound. He fasted (its talked about in my dissertation about David’s death wails and grief here) and he grieved. Yet, after the child died David worshiped. Is he more in denial than me?

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              • Dax, doesn’t matter what you think. To you, it matters what the passage SAYS. It says god struck the child, suffered for 7 days and it died.
                God killed it

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              • No, you are adding to scripture words and interpretations that not only aren’t there in the text, but also removing from your mind things that clearly ARE there. Dishonety

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              • You don’t get it. You just haven’t learned this method. The Hebrew authors theocratic. Every event good or bad they attributed to a supernatural act. It was their perception but it doesn’t mean it happened. They wrote form their honest perspective but most likely some of these things attributed to God weren’t accurate. Any scholar would agree with me here

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              • Dax,

                The problem, of course, is that you want to also believe the Bible is an inspired, inerrant, infallible text. You can’t have both, Dax, and that feeling you are having is called cognitive dissonance. Believe me, I understand. I tried every way I could to protect God from the implications of what the Bible says. Are you saying the Bible is NOT the inspired word of God? Are you saying that the Bible contains errors or incorrect statements? How does one develop this hermeneutic of yours? What are the rules by which one can determine what is and isn’t true? Using your interpretive rules, I could, quite easily, dismiss most of the Bible as just the opinions of fallible men. If the OT writers wrote fallibly, couldn’t we say the same for the writers of the NT? Perhaps the record of Jesus’ miracles, resurrection, and ascension to heaven is just fallible men sharing their “perspective.” Surely you can see how deadly this line of thinking is to your Evangelical system of belief. That said, by all means continue on this path. I have a good idea where it will lead.

                In the end, you will appeal to faith. ‘Tis the place of safety all Evangelicals run to when facing the implications of their system of belief. Faith, then, provides cover for incoherent, contradictory beliefs. Your critics are unsaved, slaves to lustful, sinful desires, so you can safely dismiss them, but try as you might, you can’t run from facts.

                Bruce

                Liked by 2 people

              • I’m interpreting. Many scholars would agree with this and argue the same. They saw everything through a theological lens. They could easily attribute things to God that He didn’t do. Let’s say He did this though. I trust Him and David did too

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              • It want born sick. The passage says god struck the child with illness…. God struck the child I’ll. Even if it were born sick, it was god who did the deed

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              • No because even if he did I am ok with it because He is God and knows more than we ever can. If He felt this was best I trust Him. The most likely truth is this was heir perception though

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              • Recovery awaits and I hope it will come, but it is j9t without price. The words, actions and behaviours of my former life and ministry haunt me daily. I hope for you and your family

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              • Your doctorate, you said, was in ancient languages with emphasis on the nt. That was a lie.
                You have a doctorate in ministry and your dissertation was on… fasting. You have no doctorate or expertise in ancient languages or textural criticism or the ancient texts themselves. You are by your own words,admission and my digging… a liar and a fraud. Eat that for supper

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              • I sure don’t need your approval or affirmation. I know who Is m and what I have done and so do many others. Your feelings on it don’t change anyhtinf

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              • Dax, the thing is… that is the reason you inflated your resume. You wanted the affirmation and approval that comes with being a Biblical scholar and ‘having’ a PhD… from duke you first told me… in ancient languages… which you don’t have.
                Pride, arrogance and approval seeking narcissism

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              • Yes, you first said when we first exchanged that you got your PhD at Duke. I had to produce you then too to be honest about it. That’s why I knew you didn’t hold a PhD in ancient languages. You told me it was ministry then and about your dissertation. Second time I was hoping you’d be more honest. But apparantly… Pride is a bugger, it hurts like hell when you get caught huh?

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              • With how you’ve interacted online here, I don’t really care about your education, only your intelligence, maturity, honesty and integrity,
                Not much you’ve shown me of that today buddy.
                Just a scared kid trying to pretend what he’s not to pull one over on people he’s never met personally. You definitely have identity and security issues brother. It’s rooted in your Faith, as it was in mine before.

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              • You read to much into this. I am confident on who I am. My church loves me. My family is strong. I have achieved more than I could have hoped for. Most would not be willing to engage in this because they wouldn’t be willing to take the insults. I am secure enough to do so. If you perceive me as negative then so be it. I have my own thoughts on you as well

                Liked by 1 person

              • Insults? Like… Unless you are a Christian your life is meaningless, hopeless, a disaster? Like those insults? Bugger off, ye who has no self awareness at all…

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              • But to people that don’t believe as you do, saying their lives arenmeaningless, pointless disastrous lives in insulting. I KNOW you don’t mean it that way, but is IS that way.
                Muslims could say the same thing,by Faith the same way you do.
                Without Allah and his messenger, YOUR life is purposeless meaningless and a disaster. Does thatnhelpm0ut your stupid comments in perspective? Now bugger off

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              • It doesn’t matter want you mean, it matters what you say and how someone else takes it. You are insulting them at the core of their identity just as you think I am to you.

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              • But you are insulting their current lives without knowing any of them, simply because they aren’t chriatian. Disastrous? Meaningless? Pointless? You’ve no idea. And they do. You insult them, without knowing the facts, because of what you believe by Faith alone.
                Insulting them for not being like you. The sheer definition of bigotry

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              • Yeah but I want them to see There is more to life than what they know with their senses. That to miss out on the supernatural is disastrous. If I really believed this wouldn’t it make sense to talk this way? Be cruel to hold it only for myself

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              • You don’t really care for people you insult. You only care for people, like your wife, who you won’t insult, but find a better way to say the same thihg,nights true.

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              • No.. you just put it out in the ether… insulting the whole world… impersonally… because you care for them… impersonally… wow, they level of irony

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              • You don’t give a whit about anyone else but yourself and other Christians. You will insult people, call them garbage and worthless all because a book told you it’s true, and you believe it by faith. You think it’s the most loving thing to tell people they are pointless meaningless and bound for an eternal torture chamber of firey horrors unless they ‘come to Jesus’ gentle meek and mild.
                You believe this to be true by Faith. You condemn and devalue others who are not christian ‘by faith’.
                Neither you or the god of the Bible know anything about love. Good

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              • Just saw the 2nd post bruce did on your disaster post. Your own church website says it WAS Beeson, you lying sack. You could have just apologized, but you didn’t. You’re an arrogant, prideful, childish prick. You got called out and doubled down. I ho0e the church members you serve read every word you’ve written here and at bruce’s blog. You lying prick.

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              • KIA my degree says Samford. BEESON is the school on the campus. You obviously don’t know how this works. I would never attack you like you do me. This is what you do though. I would not stoop to this. I will not reposed to you again on anything except an apology.

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              • On top of that, the website says you have two Sr pastors, one for teaching, the other (you) for leadership. So no… you aren’t THE Sr pastor. Lying sack

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              • We have two Senior Pastors and I am one of them. We are a large church and have co pastors. I didn’t say I was the only one but I am a senior pastor not associate

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              • That makes zero sense. Here is reality. You are an apostate and you need to justify your betrayal of my Lord. You do this by attacking me in any way you can. I don’t judge you. The Lord will do that. I pray for mercy upon your soul

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              • I wonder if your pastor would like to know how you have fraudulently portrayed your education and credentials here? Might be interesting to see the reaction

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              • I’m not threatening. It’s a public post, and your pastor might be interested in how you represent Christ and your home church.

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              • And by the way… bruce’s response post is now the third Google search result, behind your Facebook profile and linked in profile

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              • Ah… I haven’t done anything. I hope he enjoys your behaviour and misrepresentation of yourself and your doctrine in my comments section

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              • As my best friend and colleague I have told him how I uptalked my credentials. In the circumstances he sees why I did and shows me grace. I was wrong to do it and apologize to you for what it’s worth. Receive it or don’t.

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              • Sure he does. Would your pastor like to tell us for himself? Or are you just channeling what you’d like us to believe he’d say?

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              • No problem, already have it from the website. But I’m not going to email him. All he has to do is Google search your name on a random day to see what comes up. I’ll let his fingers do the walking

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              • If you are really inviting… then have him contact me. I won’t be the initiator. I don’t trust you when you say He already knows. Have h8m contact me if he’s interested. But I’ll let the Internet do the talking otherwise. Dishonest sack

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              • By the way. I just caught this… why would you give me his email address to contact him of, as you said earlier, he was standing with you there now?

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              • I assume that’s what you want to do. Hurt me. Cause me trouble. Feel free to write Nathan. He is in the loop. I apologize for deceiving you guys. Of course I feel shame about it. I worked hard for my Doctorate and have been entrenched in the languages in my study but I didn’t think Ark would know what a DMin was so I used PhD. I shouldn’t have. You have done a great job of bringing it back at me

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              • And I am no one by the way. As I have admitted before to you I have a small amount who read my stuff. No one will care about the google thing because I am a face in the crowd. I am ok with that as most of us are but I sure have no huge following by any means

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              • I’m not trying to hurt you. Do you realize that in the professional world, lies Luke you told with the motivation to appeal to authority you don’t possess has real world career ending ramifications? Why do you not think it would in the church professional world?
                Trust is a big thing, especially in the ministry. Just read the headlines whenever another church scandal comes to light.
                If you are prepared to knowingly ‘uptalk’ your resume on a public blog in order to assume authority over another commenter than you don possess, because you assume he doesn’t have the ability to uncover the truth and will just take your word for it… It doesn’t say that much about your respect for others or the truth.
                I won be the one to raise it with your pastor, but if I were him… You wouldn’t be on any ministry or professional staff I had any day about. You’d be fired and working in a McDonald’s

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              • Well I was a banker so I could probably get a little better than that:) nathan understood. He saw it as uptalk as well. He is not my boss. He is my peer and he supports me like I do him. Again feel free to talk with him and see for yourself.

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              • You keep saying you are done, yet here you are.

                What would Jesus do?

                Go back and read your old posts about how Christians should interact with atheists/unbelievers. Are you practicing what you preach?

                Based on the qualifications of a pastor in 1 Timothy 3, does your recent behavior measure up?

                According to Jesus’ words on how Christians are to treat their enemies, how does your behavior measure up?

                Based on what the Bible says about bearing false witness, how you think you should handle your lies about your educational credentials?

                Based on your public behavior, do you think you should make restitution to those you misled with your lies?

                I beg you, Dax, stop digging. If your fellow pastor really is reading your comments, can he not see that his elder’s behavior is harming not only Heartland Worship Center’s testimony but also the cause of Christ?

                Liked by 1 person

              • What about him calling me a d-head? You find that perfectly ok huh? Or I have to be the only one to use self control and manners. Yeah right. I am sure if someone called you a d-head you just be fine with it. Somehow you take the blame for them calling you that correct? Where is the rebuke on KIA here? Must have missed that part

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              • Dax, stop acting like one and I’ll stop thinking you are. You’re not helping your case any.
                Do you think your words, behaviour and morals during this conversation have reflected well on Christ, his church and your local fellowship?

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              • Dax,

                According to your theology and your view of unbelievers, how can we act otherwise? We are the enemies of God, haters of all that is good. We are dead in trespasses and sins. We came forth from the womb speaking lies. We are at variance with God. Think, for a moment, about all the shit you preach about the “lost”.

                You, on the other hand, are a God called preacher filled with the Holy Ghost. It is assumed, then, that you meet the qualifications of an elder found in 1 Timothy 3. Supposedly, you have the fruit of the Spirit. Shall I go on?

                This is not about KIA, it is about you. You are acting like someone caught doing something wrong, and rather than admit it, you point the finger at someone else. I told my wife a few minutes ago that you continue to dig yourself into a deeper hole. My advice to you would be to stop digging, confess your sin, and make restitution. If you can’t see this, you have no business being a pastor.

                With that, I am done for today. Mr. and Mrs. Miserable Empty-Lives have a dinner date. We’ll try not to be too miserable while we are out. ๐Ÿ˜€๐Ÿ˜€

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              • I think Dax is no different than so many of the fundamentalists who comment regularly on many of the blogs I frequent. He MUST believe his own lies; he cannot let any hint of questioning permeate the dogma he has rehearsed for years. So he clings to his illusions. It’s got to be emotionally exhausting to be challenged so thoroughly, as he has by you and Bruce. Dax really needs to look up the word ‘hubris’ – he’s got it, in spades.

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              • And let me add that I have been called everything imaginable thing by Evangelical preachers. I have had them preach sermons about me, mentioning me by name. I have had preachers call for special prayer meetings to “pray” for my souls. I had preachers go after my family and try to ruin my reputation. I have endured hundreds and hundreds of public attacks, including one man who threatened to slit my throat (He lives 2 1/2 hours from my home).

                Being called a dick-head? Please, child, I wish that’s all they called me.

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              • Exactly. You don’t really care about anyone who doesn’t agree with you or hold your same faith. It’s all a big game of control. Dishonest sack

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              • Did you intend for a larger audience? Yes. You wanted it to be read? Yes. You wanted to insult people for Jesus if it meant they would be like… you… Christian, yes?
                The level of narcissism and self importance, wow. Feigned Humility and self sacrifice, service and selflessness… wow. Pride is a real… Bword

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              • On top of that, when I wrote my response, you answered in my comments that unbelievers are really afraid… presumably because they should be… of the condemnation of God, so they disbelieve because they are hiding from the truth they know, but don’t want to be accountable to.
                Did you not see the implied threat there? You are threatening people with gods wrath and condemnation? The Loving God who will kill you if you don’t love him back… who will even kill newborn babies, and forgive with just a whimper.. murdering, raping, adulterous dav8d?
                THAT God you are threatening people with? And you don’t find that insulting? You think that is Loving to do? Amazing,

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              • But it’s a warning based only on what you believe, not evidence or anything other than your Faith that it’s is true… you have no idea who these people are, what their lives are like, what they do, what their dreams, aspirations… accomplishments and devotions are. You blanket condemn them to hell with out Christ after death, and meaningless existence before. All based on what your bible and tradition says… on your Faith, not on what you know of these people or your real knowledge of the afterlife. You don’t know, you believe, you have faith, but you don’t know… but you insult them ‘for their own good’ anyways. What a horrible and immoral thing to do, whether you mean it that way or not. It’s just not human or humane. Stop it

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              • … try telling the truth next time your wife asks you if that dress makes her ass look fat… if it actually does make her ass look fat. What we mean has very little to do with what we say,meow we say it and how the other person hears it. You teach your kids this stuff every day probably. Why can’t you understand it? Because you’ve been programmed to think insulting peoples identities and lives if they aren’t chriatian is the most loving thing you van do for them. Stop it

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              • You won’t tell her because it would insult her, even though you don’t mean to, and you might think another dress would look better.
                Same deal. Don’t insult people, and don’t say it’s not insulting because you don’t ‘mean’ to insult. That’s bs you yourself just admitted wasn’t right

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              • You are just brainwashed enough to think telling someone that their lives are garbage is the loving thing to say. Meaningless bullshit

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              • Numbers don’t make truth, otherwise the Buddhist and the Hindu has m9re truth than Christians, and catholics are more true christianity than protestants christianity. Truth doesn’t play numbers games

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              • No it doesn’t. I agree but many feel the way I do. There is a lot to draw from. Many feel this same thing I do and have blessed me in their testimony of it

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              • Yes, I am. But you are too. You’re god? Not so much, but you are driven to lie and even twist scripture for him. You are much better than that too, but here you are…

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              • You see, for me the biggest possible way to insult me is to lie to me. If you are proud of who you are, your education and your life… you don’t have to lie to exaggerate. It’s an insult to the people you speak with to inflate your cred, thinking they don’t know any better.

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              • I don’t care about your degrees, yiu have no ability to think and apply wisdom or make m9ral judgements where your God is concerned. You serve and love a moral monster that would make even the most ambitious psychopathic murderer blush. I sincerely hope you make it out of the cult of death and murder you currently are content and happy in.
                It is I who will pray for you and your family, that when you finally wake up from your nightmare, you are not as haunted by your own words and actions as I am by mine now. Peace

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              • It could be except that the nature seems evident in me and everyone else. We are born selfish. We didn’t have to learn it. We all have sin in us. Pretty obvious. Plus the sin nature is not an event that occurred and they are attributing it to God. It is a theological reality based on Man’s failure and God’s punishment. It’s also backed by almost every writer on the Bible. David’s baby is only spoken of in that one oncodent

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              • You may think he has the ‘right’, but that doesn’t make it right or good or Moral.
                And if your God is not good, not right not moral, then he may still have the right, but he is an immoral or at least amoral monster, not any one worthy of the Title god or the worship of anyone else but himself.
                It’s a very good thing that the g9d of the Bible is just a myth

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              • We of course our assuming His is true account. As I wrote in my dissertation it is possible this child was born sick and the writers understood it to be the punishment of God but was really just a child born sick. They may have “read God”
                Into this

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              • The bible does not give wiggle room for your supposition. It clearly states that God struck the child. You are going beyond what the text actually says to get god off the hook. That would be called lying to protect yourself from the full implications of what is written.
                Remember that part in Deuteronomy and revelation that said something about not adding to the words… not good buddy

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              • If God did it then he had the knowledge and right to do so and know why it was best. Most likely the writers attributed this to God when it wasn’t him at all. Not a literal approach but I think the OT writers made interpretations of life that weren’t always accurate about God’s motives

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              • Dax, you are only think of ways to exonerate the god of the Bible, when any other person who killed a newborn child who was innocent of anything, you would easily denounce and say was pure evil.

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              • So… only Faith that the Genesis account is true? How do you know that mankind has a sin nature and does not just make mistakes? And who gave us the sin nature to begin with?

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              • Really, I can’t think for you and I’m hoping you will think more on these things. It’s a shame you don’t seem very willing at the moment. No pride

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              • But I didn’t say I wish I could think for you, I said it’s a shame I can’t think for you. No pride. Maybe English is different in the south

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              • Evangelical pastors turned atheists no longer believe because of what they know about the Bible and Christianity. Our decisions to walk away are made with eyes (and minds) wide open. Based on the verses that follow, we are no longer good candidates for salvation, and depending on where you fall on the Arminian-Calvinist spectrum, it is impossible for us to be saved. The Bible talks about being fully persuaded. I think I can speak for everyone commenting in this post that we are fully persuaded that Christianity and the Bible are not what you claim they are. That said, I enjoy discussing the Bible and theology. I did. after all, spend 50 years in the Christian church.

                For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

                For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29

                or the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
                And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Romans 1:20-25

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              • Surely Dax is aware of the fact that Evangelicalism has a Trumpian-huge problem with pastors and professors overstating their credentials. In some Evangelical circles, if a pastor says he has a doctorate you can rest assured that he got it through a diploma mill, an unaccredited institution that hands out life experience like candy, or his doctorate is honorary. I attended a small Fundamentalist Bible college in the mid-1970s. Every year, the college handed out doctorates to several “worthy” recipients — worthy meaning they supported the college or sent students to the college. Many of my teachers had doctorates, but few earned them. Ironically, the founder of the college had a earned doctorate in education from Wayne State University.

                Here’s how one “doctor” professor handled Calvinistic beliefs in his systematic theology class: we don’t believed that here. End of discussion. When the Greek professor wanted to introduce students to texts other than the textus receptus, he was immediately reprimanded, and students were told that the only approved Bible was the one the Apostle Paul used — the King James Version. Come fall, the Greek teacher had moved on. This kind of thinking still exists in Christians colleges and universities. And thanks to men such as Al Mohler, Fundamentalist theology — specifically Calvinism — is making a resurgence in Southern Baptist universities and seminaries. Of historical note, the Southern Baptist Convention is the only sect to ever pull itself back from the liberal precipice. Once Christian institutions leave their Evangelical moorings, they don’t return. The Southern Baptists, on the other hand, are becoming more Fundamentalist by the day (and will likely suffer a huge split sometime in the future as liberal/progressive Southern Baptists take their churches (and money) out of the Convention). Of course, to my ears, this is good news. Any move away from Fundamentalism is good. Dax is young enough that perhaps he might yet follow his education to its intellectual, rational, and logical conclusion.

                Over the past nine years I have privately corresponded with numerous Evangelical ministers. They know I understand the machinations of Evangelicalism and have advanced degrees in Evangelicalese, so they are willing to honestly and openly converse with me. It has been fascinating to watch these men try to wrestle with what they know compared to what their churches expect them to believe and say. Some of them lost their faith, but have too much time invested to walk way (let’s face it, denominations don’t have exit plans and packages for unbelieving clergy). Others decide to hang on until they can find other employment. Others can’t bear to leave the church, so they choose to live with cognitive dissonance. In every instance these men know Evangelicalism is a house of cards; that’s its view of the Bible is rationally and intellectually unsustainable. I sincerely feel for them, knowing how hard it is to walk away from Christianity. I was 50 years old when I divorced Jesus. Few men my age are willing to do this and I understand why. For me, I always made more money working secular jobs, so the economic consequences of walking away were few. The bigger issue for me was losing the friendships I had developed over forty-five years. For me, intellectual honesty and integrity trumped hanging on to social structures. Thanks to the internet, I’ve made new friends, friends who aren’t willing to disown me the moment I take up a viewpoint different from theirs.

                I usually don’t comment much on other blogs. I don’t have the time, but Dax’s post caught my attention, so I decided to wade in. As you mentioned in another comment, Dax is probably a great guy, an opinion he must not hold about any of the commenters here since he said non-Christians live disastrous, miserable lives. I can accept Dax as he is, but as an Evangelical he is duty bound to evangelize us and is unwilling to accept us as we are. That’s why Evangelicals can’t really be friends with atheists. I only have one Evangelical friend, a man who has been my best friend for 52 years. We agreed that we would not talk about religion and politics unless asked to do so. I told my friend and his wife that if they would just let me happily go to hell, that would be fine by me. (I was their pastor for several years.)

                Bruce

                Liked by 1 person

              • Thx again brother bruce. I appreciate your words. Currently none of our close friends knows we have walked away from Christianity. Although we have been in and out of church for a few years. Here’s to the road to recovery and healing

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              • Dax,

                I live in rural Northwest Ohio. I pastored Evangelical churches for 25 years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. I’ve also done some revival and conference work.

                Gerencser is Hungarian. I am related to many of the Gerencsers in the Midwest, but not to every Gerencser. In my neck of the woods, every Gerencser is a relative. Five of my children took classes at the local community college. All of them have been asked if they are related to Bruce, the guy who writes to the newspaper/has a blog. I have told them they are free to say no, but so far all of my kids still own me. I am the face of atheism in this land of Evangelicalism and Republicanism. This can cause problems for my family, but, so far, they have been able to handle zealots taking out their anger towards me on them. They usually just tell people to contact me directly. I am easy to find.

                Bruce

                Liked by 1 person

              • Bruce, it’s been nice exchanging with you here. You’re welcome anytime. Your a long ways further down the deconversion road than I am, but I hope to be as wise and Fiesty as you some day. I got a good head start on the Fiesty, yeah? Lol

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              • That’s right bruce. But dax probably knows that claiming a doctorate in ancient languages would hold more gravitas and earn him more respect and possibly agreement in the conversation.
                He doesn’t even realize what he did

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              • His bruce. I went to their site and didn’t see a doctorate of ancient languages offered there. Just a doctorate of ministry. Or am I wrong? I could be

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              • Kia,

                I didn’t check what programs they offer, just their accreditation status. I have the suspicion that Dax might be overplaying his “expert” hand a bit. Expert compared to whom? Most Christian/Evangelical ministerial programs are geared more towards the work of the ministry than the text of the Bible. Most people would be surprised to know that most pastors graduate college/university without studying every book of the Bible. Often, institutions use survey classes which are little more than glorified Sunday School classes to teach ministerial students the Bible.

                As far as the original languages are concerned (which we can’t be certain on since there are no original documents to view, thus Dax’s church’s doctrinal statement saying the Bible is inerrant in the originals is meaningless) few pastors are experts. Most rely on books and tools widely available to anyone interested in studying the Bible. I had a man in one church I pastored who had a doctorate from Westminster Theological Seminary. I can’t think of a time where my lack of advanced education stood in the way of us having complex, detailed discussions about the Biblical text. Why? Becuase I know how to read. ๐Ÿ˜€ Any lack of knowledge can be corrected by reading. I suggest Dax do some reading on atheism and how atheists/agnostics/humanists view the world. If he had done so, he would never have written the post in question.

                Evangelicals, in general, are not a curious lot. They have THE truth, so there is no need for them to wander outside of the box. For example, Dax left a brief comment on my post, letting me know that he is not interested in engagement or discussion. He didn’t even make an effort to click the ABOUT page to read a bit about who and what I am. That’s fine, but I at least stalked Dax a bit so I could get a feel for the man, the myth, the legend. ๐Ÿ˜€

                Bruce

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              • Bruce, he was trying to borrow authority he doesn’t really have to claim the higher ground.
                From earlier discussions, and finally his admission here, his PhD is a doctorate in ministry, his dissertation was on fasting

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              • My classes were at the divinity section at Samford but my doctorate is from Samford University. Samford has many schools on campus with names as any University does

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              • Sorry dax to be so obstinate. I don’t see a doctorate of ancient languages offered at Samford university.
                Doctorate of ministry? The website describes that, but doesn’t reference any ‘research’ or specialization in ancient languages. Help a brother out here

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              • Dax… PhD in ancient languages with nt background. Is that what your doctorate diploma says or is there a more specific title written on the page?

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              • Dax, this is a bit more vague than I’m comfortable with, could you just state what the doctorate is in?
                Ie. Doctorate of biomechanics, Doctorate of ancient languages… what does it actually say in your doctorate?

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              • How does one ‘educationally’? I’m sure that’s not quite a correct statement of what your trying to say… intelligibly might fit better?

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            • Based on your criteria, most Evangelical pastors are unqualified to teach and preach the Bible. Are you saying that one must be an expert in the original languages of the Bible to speak authoritatively on what the Bible says?

              Available to anyone who wants to study the Bible, its origin, and its languages, are numerous computer programs and books. While students might not have the academic prowess you are proudly exposing in this discussion (euphemism warning), they can sufficiently understand what the Bible says, both in Greek/Hebrew and in English. Again, if expertise is required to truly understand the Bible, then what does that say about most Christians, and in particular, the people at the church where you are the associate pastor.

              There are many tools available through which anyone can understand the Biblical text. Bart Ehrman, for example, writes on a popular level, exposing the true nature of the Biblical text and how any belief in an inerrant Bible (even in the so called originals, which do not exist) is a deliberate denial of what we now know about the Biblical text. Do you encourage congregants to read books written by men such as Bart Ehrman?

              Trying to shut down discussion by appealing to authority (yours) will not work. While several of the commenters on this post may not have your level of education, they are well read and more than capable of discussing the nature and history of the Christian Bible.

              If your goal is understanding and interaction, then wade in for a swim. However, based on the tenor of your post, your goal seems to be to preach and to remind your fellow Christians that the unwashed, uncircumcised Philistines of the world are living hopeless, disastrous lives without the Evangelical Jesus. And when challenged, as I did in my post, you will ultimately appeal to faith, believing that unsaved people such as myself are dead in trespasses and sins, and without the Holy Spirit living inside of us we cannot truly understand the Bible.

              Liked by 1 person

              • You take me out of context. For me arguing with Ark about the veracity of the scripture and historicity of the faith it is a scholars work and not a Pastor’s work. Call it pride but I have every right to show I am qualified here and not speaking out of tradition, emotion, or uneducated bias

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              • Dax, listen to bruce. He’s been where you are. And where I was. And also, I agree with him and you… check the Pride and Appeals to authority. Just listen and respond honestly and openly

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              • Expertise in the Bible does require the languages. You can have a working knowledge but expertise comes from original language as that where you see the textual nuances of the scripture

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  2. Carl Sagan makes a good point which in more recent times has also been made by Sean Carroll. An objective look at evidence shows the universe was not made with the development of intelligent life as its purpose. Rather life is incredibly fragile grasping on at margins, most of the universe is incredibly hostile to life.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Dax,

    You say you are not a Fundamentalist, yet the doctrinal statement for the church you pastor is most certainly Fundamentalist. http://www.heartlandworship.com/what-we-believe

    Many Evangelicals hate being labeled Fundamentalists, but based on long years of personal experience and study, I have concluded that Evangelicalism is inherently Fundamentalist.

    https://brucegerencser.net/2015/01/evangelicals-fundamentalists/

    If it walks and talks like a Fundamentalist, it is a Fundamentalist. While there are certainly Evangelicals on the far left of the Evangelical spectrum who are not Fundamentalists, the majority of Evangelical pastors and churches are. Those who are not should be honest with themselves and change their designation to progressive/liberal (and I am quite familiar with the sociological, psychological, and economic reasons why someone might want to hang on to the Evsngrlical moniker).

    You say you are not a young earth creationist. What, then, is your belief about creation and the first three chapters of Genesis?

    Bruce

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  4. Dax,

    No Bart Ehrman is not my source. I am suggesting that he is a good source for people who may not have your John Holmes-sized education. You are most certainly wrong about most scholars disagreeing with Ehrman. What you meant to say is that most Evangelical scholars disagree with him, and that most of them agree with him on the data, but disagree with the conclusions he draws from that data.

    So, pastors have no skin in the game when it comes to the nature and veracity of the Bible? Surely you can’t believe this to be true. Countless Evangelical pastors Sunday after Sunday proclaim the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant, infallible, authorative Word of God. Should they not tell congregants the basis for these claims? Or should pastors just faith-it, quote a few Bible verses, and let church members continue on in wonderful, uneducated bliss? If the Bible can withstand scrutiny, what’s the harm in telling people the truth? What’s wrong with a Wednesday night book reading club featuring one of Ehrman’s, Robert Price’s, or John Loftus’ books? Surely, pastors want congregants to know the truth, right?

    I’ve interacted with scores of Evangelical pastors, both as a pastor myself and as an atheist. The main reasons preachers keep preaching the company line is that they fear congregants will lose their faith and they fear losing their jobs. (I help with the Clergy Project, so I have first hand experience with pastors who know what they preach isn’t true, but they fear what will happen if they dare tell their churches the truth.)

    Evangelical pastors claim lying is a sin, yet Sunday after Sunday they stand before their people and tell one lie after another. The overwhelming majority of Evangelicals are young earth creationists. Why haven’t their pastors told them the truth about Genesis 1-3? Of course, the reasons are not hard to understand. If, from the beginning, the Bible is not meant to be understood literally, how can congregants have confidence that any of the Bible is true. If the Genesis account of creation is just one big metaphor, then why not apply this same hermeneutic to the rest of the Bible. If Adam and Eve are just metaphors, then this necessarily means that Jesus died for a metaphor.

    Well, enough. I’ve got work to do. Thanks for interacting with my comments.

    Bruce

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    • Bruce, you’re right. Most scholars agree with ehrman’s data, only the more funny and evangelical scholars disagree with him, a smaller group out of the whole than dax would probably admit to, on his conclusions based on the data.
      If ehrman and the majority of scholars are right, the Bible fails as gods inspired and preserved word, fails as an accurate record of real and verifiable ancient history. Which it does. This is why dax’s “many scholars” disagree with Bart ehrman and the mainstream of biblical archaeology and historians.

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  5. How is it that Dax claims to be the one with the PhD but Bruce is the one who’s the obvious scholar in this thread? It just goes to show that true intellect is not necessarily indicated by initials after a person’s name.

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    • Carmen, the only initials that completely shocked me from dax were… DCT. He thinks God can do whatever he wills and it’s good because by definition, whatever God does is good. Bullshit

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      • Yup, good ol’ Divine Command Theory a la WL Craig – the apologists’ best buddy. Dax might not have realized it yet, but he probably has far more morals than the god he worships.

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    • Thanks, Carmen. I tell people I earned my doctorate in the study, reading countless books and engaging in countless discussion about the Bible, theology, and Church history. When it comes to Evangelicalism I know my stuff, even if I don’t have the proper degrees.Knowledge can be gained many ways, and I never look down on someone just be cause they lack certain letters after their name. Books and diligent study can and do provide sufficient education for someone to be conversant on the Bible. The Bible is not as difficult as the gatekeepers suggest. Some parts of it are difficult, but many parts are not. What is hard is all the gymnastics one must learn to make the Bible speak with a cohesive, single voice. Men spend a lifetime learning to make the Bible say something other than what it says. The goal is maintaining orthodoxy and sectarian purity, not knowledge.

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      • ‘What is hard is all the gymnastics one must learn to make the Bible speak with a cohesive, single voice. ‘

        Indeed, this is what became apparent to me when I studied theology and no doubt contributed to me later concluding that the Bible was a human, not a divine, book.

        It was Hebrews 6:4-6 that especially drew this to my attention. The text is really quite clear, but I could not find a single scholar or pastor who would accept the plain meaning, instead all sought to explain it away as meaning something other than what it said.

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        • Bruce I just read some of your other comments and noticed you touched on the Hebrews passage. It is of course a challenging passage for those who follow Calvinist doctrine.

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          • It sure is, so we Calvinists would deftly explain that Paul was writing to Jews, not Gentile Christians or use other gymnastics to make the passage say something other than what it says. Arminians of course, have less of a problem with these verse. That said, I do know Arminians who were once friends of mine that believe I am still saved. I am just in a long, long state of rebellion. ๐Ÿ™‚ Baptists have a problem with me because they either must admit I am still a Christian or that I was never saved to begin with. Quite entertaining.

            I try to get Christians to accept my story at face value. I once a devoted follower of Jesus, a preacher of the gospel, and now I am not. Forget what this or that theology says. If I say I was once a Christian (and provide ample evidence for my claim) and now I am not (providing ample evidence for this claim too), there’s no reason to not accept my story as told. I have had a few zealots publicly say that my whole story is fake, that they KNOW Bruce Gerencser never pastored this or that church. One man even called friends of his that live in rural NW Ohio, and they assured him that they had never heard of me! There’s proof for you. Yet, here I am. ๐Ÿ™‚

            Bruce

            Liked by 1 person

            • Bruce, Mike (otherwise KIA the host of this site) and I often come across zealous Christians claiming that neither of us were ever true Christians. It does not really bother me as I know they have to say that or admit their theology is flawed.

              I have mentioned to Mike in the past how you have observed that in your case no-one ever suggested that you were not a true christian whilst you were pastoring churches for decades. And that is the crucial point.

              The arminian/calvinist debate seems less of an issue nowadays. I must admit arminianism makes a lot more sense, but of course struggles with the Ephesians passage which refers to people being selected before the foundation of the earth. The logical conclusion of calvinism that ‘God’ predetermines the non elect to Hell is a problem that can’t be explained away in my opinion, though Augustine and later thinkers argued that everyone deserved Hell and ‘God’ graciously saved some. I have much trouble with the morality of that argument.

              In years past a like Rock of Ages was written by a calvinist to make a point to the arminians, which I think they largely missed and happily sung the hymn anyway.

              Liked by 1 person

  6. It’s late here and I have to work in the morning. Gotta be ‘bright-eyed and bushy-tailed’ for a class of Gr. 9’s. ๐Ÿ™‚ Great to see you out and about, though, Bruce! Dax, I really hope you consider Bruce’s hard-earned wisdom. As he says, you are young and – I would add – deluded/thoroughly indoctrinated; it’s quite apparent.
    Don’t waste your life on such foolish, baseless nonsense.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Oh, and Dax. I forgot the most important thing. Do your part and don’t be spreading this foolishness to children, eh? Totally not fair to take advantage of their innate trust in adults. It could even be said that it’s emotional abuse. I say that very sincerely. Besides, they know invisible means there’s nothing there.
    Nothing.

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  8. KIA et al.,
    I knew Dax’s name sounded familiar and have remembered how/what the context was for my association. Dax was witness to a shooting in Forth Worth (a church) – in 1999, I believe – where 7 were killed, including the gunman. It had to have been extremely traumatic. Dax, though – no doubt – feels that (his) god saved him and that undoubtedly makes him feel quite special. The obvious problem with this scenario is that, if it’s true that he was ‘saved’ by the hand of (his) god, it must also mean that his god decided that 7 other people should die. I’ve read through his further comments last night and I see that he must be quite comfortable with the thought that god had his (good!) reasons for that.

    Sad, eh?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Carmen, it was truly chilling to me that to get god off the hook in 2 Samuel, Dax was ready to not only say that whatever God does is good by definition, dct, but also twist and eventually deny what the clear reading of the passage said and claim that it wasn’t god who killed the child or struck it with illness… it was born sick and died ‘naturally’. What utter dishonesty, deny scripture to save the scripture’s god. Fully believing that God has the right to kill anyone, at anytime, for anything he chooses… and to Dax, that is still a ‘loving god’?
      To quote a famous line from 300…
      This, this is insanity… “insanity? This. Is. Christianity!!!” As he kicks all other evidence and people to the pit of ignorance and self imposed blindness

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      • KIA,

        dct part of the argument aside. I think there’s a big difference in claiming:

        1) the scripture doesn’t say God punished David’s son for the king’s sins (this would be denial and twisting as it obviously does say that the child is being punished for David’s trangressions.)

        2) the scripture does say it, but most likely the child was just sick and the people of that time (i. e. the writer or writers) incorrectly attributed the death to God.

        The second seems to be Dax’s position. Of course that also means the bible isn’t infallible since it would be an example of the Bible making a claim that happened for a particular reason and then it not being true.

        Liked by 1 person

  9. Pingback: Dear Dax, Words Have Meanings | The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser

  10. Pingback: Kia does Cat-urday: Why God created Cats. | The Recovering Know It All

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