The Believer’s Dispair of the Truth

Fear of the loss of his Innocence drives him to continue believing… regardless of Evidence and Historical Truth…

“… God’s Word trumps…”

In answer to the question “Should the Biblical creation story be viewed as literal or figurative?”

AUGUST 19, 2016 AT 9:35 AM
Wally Fry
Hey Lynn

Interesting question, and I am going to chime in! I am one of those “fundamentalists” First, I’m not here to debate any one one your blog, nor will I.

I happen to believe creation happened just as described in Genesis. Allow me to add some thoughts. Let me say first that I understand the reality of what seems to be compelling evidence from history and science that this account can only be figurative. Again, that’s an entire other subject. Being the fundamentalist that I am, I would simply state I believe God’s Word trumps.

The Believer denies evidence because to do otherwise… invites despair and disappointment… and deconversion…

Why does a literal creation matter? Some thoughts.

We we rule out a literal creation as just not possible we imply that God really couldn’t do all that. Well, if He could not speak the worlds into existence, then he is not much of a God.

Genesis 2:7 tells us God formed us with His own hands and personally breathed life into us. We were created in His image. Frankly, the entire evolutionary model, while seemingly compelling, destroys the very thought that humankind is in God’s image. The implications of evolving into God’s image are outstanding. That would imply that somehow we are, over time, able to become more God like and in His image. That would be no more than us working our way to salvation, by works. Toss grace out of the window. We didn’t evolve into God’s image, He created us that way.

And the full extent of the believer’s dispair… crescendos yet higher…

If there was no literal creation, and no literal garden, and no literal Adam and Eve…then there is….nothing. No Adam and Eve…….no fall into sin…..then no sin. No sin problem, then no need for Jesus, because if we aren’t sinners no need to any payment to be made. Frankly, Lynn, without a literal creation, then the entire rest of the narrative unravels as well.

Then we roll right back into we don’t need God, we don’t need Jesus. We just need to work hard and eventually we will evolve and change into something better.

I was wrong, Brother Wally. You DO understand…

It may seem at times that the literal account of Genesis is very hard to believe, but I maintain that it is a vital part of the entire Word of God upon which our faith is built.

You are just Afraid. Like I was. Like I am. But fear is no foundation for life, peace, joy and fulfillment. 

“… by the mouth of two witnesses…”, from an earlier post on The Resurrection

“Without a bodily resurrection, our entire faith simply melts away. Without the Resurrection, Jesus was not God; he was just a martyred prophet. Without the Resurrection, every single prophecy about it is false; that renders the Bible false. Without the Resurrection, even Jesus’ own prophecies about His death and Resurrection were false, making Him not even a real prophet, but a false one. ” – Wally.

I’m sad for you, Brother Wally… and hopeful .

Because if you understand what’s at stake, the devastation to your Faith in accepting evidence and historical truth… then even though for now… you maintain your Faith, later… Maybe not much later… you may understand where I am in my journey. Maybe even… you’ll join me, where the Evidence leads away from the Biblical God and to…

Recovery.

Truth ™ is sometimes… Askew to some people. But eventually, it all seems to straighten out and align with… 

Reality.

My hope for you, Brother Wally, and all who are now as I once was. Bound by fear of Truth.

-kia

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99 thoughts on “The Believer’s Dispair of the Truth

    • Wally has admitted a couple of times in either posts or comments that he understands what is at stake. I agree with Paul “if Christ be not risen, we are of all men… most miserable”.

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      • I just read through Wally’s comment again and would have to agree with him on one aspect. I am a Creationist, too. I believe man created god(s). (A meme JZ posted the other day) 🙂
        When you think of it, there’s way more evidence for that idea than the opposite.

        Liked by 3 people

        • It’s maddening. He knows what’s at stake. He probably even knows the Bible is wrong about the creation story. Yet fear, dumb, blinded, and terrifying fear that all he believes and ‘knows’ to be true is nothing more than sand

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    • Well the Bible can’t be wrong John, so whatever it says must be good. Afterall how else would we know what morality is?

      So if a voice in our head says that we should sacrifice our child then this must be moral?

      But the believer says “well God would never ask me to do that”. However throughout history some people have thought that this is waht ‘God’ has asked them to do.

      Liked by 2 people

      • The issue is peter and john, the god of the bible has in fact, thru his prophets, priests, bishops and pop3s, thru the centuries asked exactly that. Killing in the name of god, for his glory, amd his kingdom.

        Liked by 1 person

    • A pathetic statement here , and Mr Recoveringknowitall, I challenge you here and now to crack the knuckles of this zandevuhl absurdity.

      Oh wait, that will never happen, you actually ‘like’ this. And btw mike, while I’m here, the ‘despair’ that you project on believers is merely the disappointment that you have found with ‘the’ faith. Don’t be so fast to wish upon a star.

      It is your despair. Own it. And let me repeat this idea by the zandegod: No zande, Wally is not ‘one command away from killing innocent people.’ You really should stay away from children. As a matter of fact, you should go live in a cave and not come in contact with anybody since you harbor such poisonous thoughts.

      You apparently have difficulty noting the difference between night and day.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Cs, the kind of cognitive dissonance in the face of actually knowing what one is doing is most likely wrong… what I think I hear in Wallys ‘confession’ here… IS the kind of devotion one would expect from someone who is only one step away from obeying voices in the night to wake up and either kill his son on a mountain top or lead an army to mass genocide because “god said it, that settles it”
        I honestly don’t think wally, you or any of the other regulars I deal with on the blogs are quite there yet. Thank god. But you need to understand. This IS the same type of blind devotion in the face of reality that radical Muslim extremists employ as they “obey god rather than man” and blow themselves and other human beings up in suicide bombings, or in airplanes aimed at buildings.

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      • … and cs, you are right. It is my dispair. I own it, as opposed to wally, you, James,… I own the dispair of the greater portion of my life, limited time on earth, energies, money, youth, spent on a total lie and fabricated myth. I own it by recognizing it, and then leaving it for Reality. “Come, follow me…” I will make you a fisher of… Truth

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      • … and by the way, I don’t bann, delete, EDIT, or block comments here, like SOME blogs I know (hint, hint). Very rarely will I need to ask someone to bring it back or dial it down. But again, that is the definition of free and open exchange of ideas. Which benefit you are enjoying right now, Brother

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        • Yeah I tried commenting on Wally’s blog once, and instead of really responding, I was first asked what my beliefs were, and I didn’t think that it really mattered. I wasn’t abusive, I just made a few points and asked a polite, but hard to answer question for a fundamentalist. That got deleted, and that’s when Victoria told me that there are some bloggers out there who delete and edit comments because they are unable to counter certain points intellectually. If the only way one’s beliefs can remain strong is through censorship that is a shaky foundation.

          Liked by 2 people

          • Wally is defensive and sometimes aggressively so. He really is a novice in knowledge. He doesn’t seem to have much of a toolkit, so when you ask questions of pose thoughts and ideas past what he is prepared to consider or able to answer, he’s not honest enough to just admit it. He just flings poo or deletes the offending comments. I’ve been fortunate lately, but then again… I’ve been previously deleted and blocked, so I know what I can and cannot say.
            Not very open and honest, but I hope he will be someday. So I try to keep up with his blog and keep the lines open. I appreciate your intelligence and we’ll spoken manner. Thank you.

            Liked by 1 person

            • Thank KIA. It reminds me of a line from a Douglas Adams speech where he talks about how religion unlike any other field of thought gets to hide behind this notion of sanctity. That while we may challenges ideas everywhere else, we shouldn’t get to challenge religious beliefs. And I think most of us might be okay with that if A) They kept it personal B) Even if personal those beliefs didn’t cause harm to other humans. When those two things aren’t met and they often aren’t, I think there is no reason why religious ideas shouldn’t be openly criticized provided it is done in a respectful way. But because this notion exists that you don’t question somebody’s religious beliefs, criticism is very often mistaken for offense and disrespect. Such questions and engagement should be welcome if one hopes to actually move towards truth in their lives…instead too many choose fantasy over reality.

              Liked by 1 person

              • Indeed. I am convinced that it is very much like a house of cards of logic. Wally’s argument actually really points that out. Notice how he says “If A isn’t true than B can’t be true either”…but B is true and therefore A must be true as well. So it all hinges on each other, but they don’t want to deal with the truth of the premises. Because what they are actually doing is making this logical argument:

                I A then B
                B is true
                There A is true

                This is the fallacious form (called affirming the consequent) of the logical argument modus tollens which states

                If A then B
                A is true
                Then B

                So for Wally he derives the truth of A, through the truth of B. Because he believes so strongly in B he refuses to accept that A might not be true, so in his mind he can make the argument the logical way or the fallacious way and see no difference. Furthermore even if he makes the argument the logical way, logic still requires one to test the the truth of the premises. For modus ponens to be correct and not just logically valid wikipedia states it well: “An argument can be valid but nonetheless unsound if one or more premises are false; if an argument is valid and all the premises are true, then the argument is sound. ”

                So Wally really gives the game away there and I expect this is the same logical trap that many religious fundamentalists fall into.

                Liked by 1 person

      • Wally, you, and James are all but one “command” away from killing innocent people. Your delusions have consumed you. You’ve left reality in favour of some perverted pantomine… and that same pantomime is being lived by ISIS. The only difference between you and them right now is that you haven’t been given a reason to kill.

        Liked by 2 people

  1. The belief that “God’s Word” trumps all contrary evidence is a proposition that by definition is impossible to falsify. Thus whilst a believer maintains this stance they are in essence saying that “I believe despite the evidence rather than because of the evidence”.

    Now they might find this approach satisfying but really they should not expect it to resonate with anyone who is interested in finding actual truth.

    But they do need to ask themselves exactly what persuaded them in the first place that the Bible was a divine book?

    As I have said numerous times such an attitude to the Bible means that these believers should have great sympathy for those of other faiths who see their Holy Books the same way. But this is where the rub is and where the argument falls apart. Because such Bible believers invariably are intolerant of people of other faith who think in the same way they do.

    A thoughtful Christian would reflect upon this and reassess their position, but I am not holding my breath.

    Liked by 2 people

  2. The thing is we know </em/ the creation story of Adam and Eve is simply myth.
    The Jews have been saying this for longer than I can remember.

    And science with the Human Genome Project has demonstrated beyond doubt that humanity did not derive from a single couple as per the bible story. And the HGP was originally headed by Francis Collins, and evangelical Christian who has some ”views;; about Creationists.
    There is no position Wally, Colorstorm or any Creationist can adopt that will in any way mitigate this.

    If one were to take a similar stance that Napoleon Bonaparte was still alive and living in Vegas and there was a doctrine based on his reported sayings one would likely be declared insane.

    Try to teach it in schools as truth and hammer congress or your local politician and you might very well be arrested.

    Why then is Wally allowed access to teach this Creationist shit to children?

    Liked by 1 person

  3. “Being the fundamentalist that I am, I would simply state I believe God’s Word trumps.” ~Wally Fry

    Sounds just like this guy:

    “If somewhere within the Bible I were to find a passage that said two plus two equals five, I wouldn’t question what i’m reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it is true, and then do my best to work it out and to understand it.” ~Pastor Peter Laruffa

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Ron
    Does the point the man makes escape you? He is not talking about simple math.

    He is contrasting things which may be difficult to comprehend. There are things which appear contradictory…….but upon further consideration, comparison, and sincere cogitation, the light dispels the dark, and things are made clearer.

    Example? Sure. It would have been impossible to comprehend the cherubim when mentioned the first time in scripture. As it is, God expects they with soft hearts to learn here a little, there a little, until more light is revealed. Trouble is, people conclude things having not thought through a matter.

    The Jews. ‘Away with Him………….’ Nuff said.

    (and by the way, one plus one does reveal the Creator)

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      • Now Ron how is that unreasonable?

        Now seriously these folk never seem to stop and seriously ask the question, “how do I know the Bible is a divine book?”

        Clear errors and scientific misunderstanding in the Bible would suggest it is not a divine book. In fact just one story, The Flood, is sufficient to prove the Bible is not divine. The Flood is the easiest story in the Bible to categorically prove as being untrue.

        …And Yet some folk seek to provide ‘proof’ for the flood. How does one reason with such foolishness and delusion?

        Liked by 1 person

        • In fairness, we’re all prone to entertain irrational beliefs. Consider how many people find reasons to engage in bad habits despite the known health risks. (“Yeah, but my grandma drank, smoked like a chimney, ate whatever she wanted and lived to see ninety.”)

          Liked by 1 person

  5. Well for starters, lets just dispense with the obvious. Wally keeps referring to all of his talking points and observations as “thoughts”. These are not “thoughts”. Those statements are propaganda regurgitation. Regurgitation of long refuted, anti-scientific nonsense by someone who has long ago been brow-beaten (figuratively, not literally), and/or brainwashed into believing that it’s better not to think for oneself. Just believe no matter what.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. I’m a little confused here. Why did you link to a blog and misrepresent what the other blogger wrote? I understood perfectly that the blogger you linked to did not deny the importance of the biblical creation story in any regard.

    Found this blog while trying to figure out what to believe about God and creation. It’s mean spirited, not much thinking is involved in it, and it’s generally pretty shitty. If it is your goal to convice people their faith in Chtristianity is without merit, you are failing at every level. I actually think you may have moved me closer to faith father than further away.

    I will absoultely not be back.

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  7. So you don’t care that you are making yourself and your very small audience of God haters look like asses while at the same time making religion look reasonable and appealing?

    I have actually spent a bit of time scrolling through your blog and shutty doesnt even begin to describe how bad it is. seriously dude, you have problems and need help.

    And people believe you were once a minister, lol? Probably one of the biggest lies ever told. No way you were a minister my man, no fucking way.

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    • And just so we’re clear with each other, I’ve no desire to argue or trade insults with someone who isn’t even honest enough to identify themselves, but rather calls themselves ‘someone’ or a modification of my own name as some kind of passive aggressive swipe at me. Have a wonderful day. I can still bless those that curse me

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  8. Bless? How are you a blessing to anyuone but perhaps the four fucking retards who normally comment here you fat sack of ass?What an utterly worthless little man you must be.

    Like

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