Friday Morning Grace: Embrace True Forgiveness

My question for today is “Cannot the One who made up the rules and is Only offended by their abrogation just simply… Forgive?” My answer is… Yes. Yes he can. But why doesn’t He? -kia

“True Forgiveness is me giving up my right to any Recompense for the wrong you have done to me. It means neither you or anyone else has to pay the Penalty or the Price. Otherwise it’s not Forgiveness, but just Punishment or Scapegoating someone else to keep you from needing Give what only you can give… True Forgiveness… Forgives.” -kia

In Christianity and according to the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, 

  • God creates the World, Us and All there is
  • He makes the rules
  • Only He is ‘ultimately’ offended
  • Ultimately, He is the Creditor
  • Only He is Unchanging and Unchangeable
  • Nothing we do or say can ever minimize or diminish What and Who He is

He could just Forgive, 

  • but He chooses to Recompense Eternal Punishment and Torture for Finite offenses to His supposedly  Unchangeable and Unaffected Glory committed by Limited creatures such as we during our Finite lifetimes. 

He could just Forgive, 

  • but His Glory ‘demands’ Payment and Retribution, whether by or on You and I in a place of Everlasting Fire or His Own Son on an equally Finite and Limited torture and death on a cross. (A three day ‘take back’)

He Himself says Only He is ultimately offended. 

  • Only He is able to Forgive and Release the Sinner from the Price and Penalty by True Forgiveness… Relinquishing His Rights to Recompense… on You or anyone else FOR you.

He could just Forgive… He did David after the Rape of Bathsheba, and the Murder of he husband Uriah… wouldn’t You? 

  • Have you asked yourself, christian… If He can and He could… Why won’t He and Why doesn’t He?

Embrace True Forgiveness Today. 

My Hope for you who are still as I once was, a Christian Slave to a False System of Divine Human Sacrifice and Eternal bondage or Eternal punishment… is that you would simply walk away from the False Forgiveness and system of Penalty, Price, Punishment and Pain. That you would learn that There is no Scapegoat. There is only True Forgiveness… or Recompense. We forgive each other (or not) for offenses done to us… no God of the Bible involved at all.

“I set before you Life… therefore, Choose Life”-kia paraphrase

Choose True Forgiveness Today and Give it to others Freely. Leave the False Forgiveness of Torture, Punishment and Death for the True Forgiveness of Life and Peace. Recovery Awaits. 



102 thoughts on “Friday Morning Grace: Embrace True Forgiveness

    • They have never been able to answer it other than to state that a debt must be paid. Punishment for sin and all that garbage.

      Of course, if one were to point out the idiocy of a parent killing one child as a method of wiping out the ”sins” of the other siblings that person would find themselves in a padded cell very quickly.

      Liked by 2 people

  1. Oh the comedy!

    Did you hear about the hyenas who needed to be forgiven for stealing the deer from the lion? Oops, it appears they are clueless and not guilty of any wrongdoing.

    So you enjoy acting like a hyena, as you snicker regarding things in which you are lost as fog???????

    Liked by 2 people

    • So cs, sorry just getting to this, how bout it?
      Couldn’t god just forgive without the Recompense?
      If so, why doesn’t he? If not, why not? He is god after all right? He who made the rules and is ultimately only offended… can he not just forgive like Nathan pronounced David forgiven after raping bathsheba, killing her husband and covering it up by lies and deceit?


      • Kia: Couldn’t [God] just forgive without the Recompense?

        Are you crazy?
        Where would be the Justice.

        If earthly judges just forgave every murderer/law-breaker that came before their court… are you saying you’d be fine with this “forgiveness without recompense”.

        Kia, God is the Judge of the entire Universe… and you can rest assured, absolutely no one has escaped (or will escaped) His righteous judgement.

        If you’re a thinking person, you’ll now be able to figure out why Christ Jesus accepted the penalty on our behalf.
        But for those who choose to say no thanks God… I’m big/good/whatever enough to bear Your judgement myself – hmm – we’ll see how they fare in that unwise decision/choice.


        • When you truly forgive a debt owed to you by someone else, do you still require payment? No, you absorb the loss without payment. No Recompense, payment or punishment by anyone, not even yourself, is required at all.

          Liked by 1 person

          • This is intellectual vandalism.
            In which society is the above practiced in any shape or form? — [the universe that you have created, right]

            When you see mothers in court saying they’ve forgiven the murderer(s) of their children, do you also see them advocating for ‘non payment of debt to society and for the crimes committed’.

            Your argument is not clever… it’s foolishness.

            As I’ve said before – go out there and invite as many unrepentant murderers as you’d like to come and live in your home. After all, you’ve forgiven them for their crimes and require absolutely nothing of them.

            Liked by 1 person

              • Do you then acknowledge that you owe God a debt that you cannot repay?

                Do you seek, accept and receive His forgiveness.

                We all have a lot to learn regarding the system of justice.

                Mercy is God not punishing us as our sins deserve, and grace is God blessing us despite the fact that we do not deserve it. Mercy is deliverance from judgment. Grace is extending kindness to the unworthy.

                A plea to God for mercy is asking Him to withhold the judgment we deserve and instead grant to us the forgiveness we in no way have earned.


            • “When you see mothers in court saying they’ve forgiven the murderer(s) of their children, do you also see them advocating for ‘non payment of debt to society and for the crimes committed’.”

              This does sound like a perfectly reasonable argument….except that it is a blatantly false and misleading analogy.

              The Lord, punishing all of humanity, to the ultimate generation, for the supposed sins of their ancestors is ridiculous. He’s not punishing anyone who actually committed a “crime” (except that of being born). He’s condemning all of humanity for the “sins” and “crimes” committed before they were born. This is a stupid, tyrannical act, committed by an unhinged dictator.

              Can you imagine punishing the parents and the grand parents and the siblings of murderers?
              THAT is intellectual vandalism.


              • Talk about unhinged.

                A debt that has been forgiven you is free to you but certainly not free to the giver. It costs the giver something. It always does!

                You’re getting all hot and bothered over things you clearly do not even understand.
                Are you being punished (to the ultimate generation – whatever that is)?

                How does all that nonsense you just spouted square with the following:

                For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
                For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him.


              • The Ancients:
                “Do you then acknowledge that you owe God a debt that you cannot repay?”
                “A debt that has been forgiven you is free to you but certainly not free to the giver. It costs the giver something. It always does!”

                You apparently don’t understand the meaning of the word “forgiven”
                Let me help you with that. From the Oxford dictionary

                Forgive: (verb)
                1) Stop feeling angry or resentful towards (someone) for an offence, flaw, or mistake.
                ‘I’ll never forgive David for the way he treated her’
                2) No longer feel angry about or wish to punish (an offence, flaw, or mistake)
                ‘I was willing to forgive all her faults for the sake of our friendship’
                3) Cancel (a debt)
                ‘he proposed that their debts should be forgiven’

                The debt has been CANCELLED. That means it’s over. Nobody owes anybody anything anymore.
                Holding it over someone’s head, constantly reminding them of it, making them feel guilty for it, demanding something in return and forcing them to grovel on their knees for all of eternity is NOT forgiveness. It’s BLACKMAIL.

                Get it right.

                I didn’t commit any crime. I didn’t ask for anyone’s forgiveness, I don’t want it and I am not bound by it

                Liked by 1 person

              • Ur right ashley. Debts that have been cancelled in forgiveness need no payment in addition. You can either have true forgiveness or the false forgiveness of still having to, or needing someone else to for you, pay the debt. You can’t have both.
                But what ancients doesn’t accept is that there was no debt to begin with, only the myth of a mob boss selling an eternal protection racket with broken legs and eternal torment in hell for refusing ‘the offer you can’t refute’. The God of the bible is a myth, a monster and only exists in the minds and hearts of his victims

                Liked by 1 person

          • Now, you’re just self-deluded and incoherent (your reality doesn’t reflect what you purportedly believe). Deliberately subjecting one’s self to the foolishness of Atheism will accomplish that.


              • Well Ron, since you regard your time “discussing” as a waste… so please forgive me for not making the discussion a priority.


              • In which comment did I say our discussion was a waste of my time? I do remember asking you:

                “Why do you waste time arguing with non-believers when it could be better spent helping others?”

                To which you responded:

                “I do not consider it a waste of time speaking about who Christ Jesus is and His essentiality to a purposeful, abundant, and eternal life.
                Eternal life is knowing God and Christ Jesus.”

                And then about 14 hours later you wrote:

                “I’ll respond to the rest at a later time.”

                Based on those comments I assumed you were willing to continue on. Should I now revise my assessment and conclude you were lying when you wrote that?

                Liked by 1 person

              • Your next point was Jesus speaking to the rich young ruler where He told him to ‘sell all he has and give to the poor’.

                You’ve used this to suggest, why am I not doing the same.

                Exactly following this exchange, Jesus met with Zacchaeus, another rich person; yet Jesus did not have the same advice for him.
                Why not?

                Why did Jesus use the Law on one and grace on another?
                Answer – motivations of the heart.

                Liked by 1 person

              • theancients,

                All right, let’s do a bible study.

                The rich man in Matthew 19 asked Jesus, “What good thing must I do to have eternal life?”

                Jesus responded, “Keep the commandments.”

                The rich man replied, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?”

                To which Jesus responded, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

                In Luke 12:22-30, Jesus tells his disciples, “…do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes . . . do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it . . . your Father knows that you need them. But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well. . . . Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

                Luke 19:8 informs us that Zacchaeus (a tax collector) stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

                Finally, Acts 2:44-45 tells us that “All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.” That sounds eerily similar to the socialist creed—From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!—does it not?

                Taken together, the passages proclaim one consistent theme: shun earthly wealth and focus on the ministry to secure your treasure in Heaven.

                Which is why I frequently express disbelief in the convictions of those who claim they follow Christ, yet consistently pursue worldly interests.

                Liked by 1 person

              • How do you know they’re pursuing worldly interests.
                Could it be that many of those who have a lot that they’re reaping from seeking first His kingdom… and these things (the things that you’re seeing and complaining about) were added to them

                Proverbs 3 also tells us that when we find Wisdom, long life is in her right hand and wealth and honor are in her left.

                So the pursuit of wealth and material things are not the goal of the believer.

                However, for the one who seeks first to know God and His way of doing things – finding wisdom- these things are just additional benefits.


              • theancients,

                How do I know they’re pursuing worldly interests? I see them returning from church on Sundays, and the shopping mall the remainder of the week.

                But riddle me this:

                If God is no respecter of persons—as the “good book” informs us—why is it that the material blessings always seem to flow to the believers of developed nations. Shouldn’t those stuck in poorer countries obtain an equal return from their faith investment?

                However, the more important issue for you to consider (privately) is this:

                Which of the people mentioned in the previous passages best represents me? Am I like the rich man who walked away sorrowful because he couldn’t part with his possessions? Or am I more like the tax collector who gave away half of his wealth and promised to repay anyone he’d cheated four times the amount taken? Or do I identify as one of the faithful who sold everything and shared it with those in need?

                Because, ultimately, it’s not me you need to sway to the soundness of your exegesis—it’s yourself.


              • Hi Ron,
                It’s only people in “developed countries” who believe everyone else living in “undeveloped countries” are dirt poor.

                I can say most people in “undeveloped countries” are richer than the majority in “developed countries” even though these people tend to live in bigger, nicer homes, drive cars etc. (Most of these people carry debt – something you are likely not to find in “undeveloped countries”… it’s all perspective, really.

                I already know who I am Ron… no need to ask me to consider it privately.
                I’m not an atheist who thinks life is meaningless and I have no purpose.

                I ask God for wisdom to be a faithful steward of all He’s given me authority over.


              • theancients,

                Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say. If you perceive the people living in those places have it so much better than us, why are you still here?

                But I agree on the perspective part. As Thoreau wrote:

                “A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.”


              • Are you now telling me I should chase after a better life– after scolding me for not selling all I have.

                Plus, I didn’t say they had it so much better than developed nations. I’m saying you cannot judge based on location and material possession.


              • theancients,

                I think I’ve been fairly consistent, because I’ve advocated you adopt Jesus’ view that “less is more” and just two comments ago you finally agreed. So now that we’re both on the same wavelength, I think your next step is to unload all those burdensome first world possessions that have been weighing you down spiritually for all these years and then move to a debt-free prison cell in North Korea. I’m told Kim Jong-un is considered a god over there. YMMV


              • Well, I certainly wouldn’t take advice from you Ron 😛

                As you know,
                Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly [that would be you Ron]…nor sits in the seat of scoffers…


              • theancients,

                The same author also wrote:

                “Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”

                Do you consider that sound advice, too?


              • King David said he’d be happy if others did to his enemies what they had done to him and his people.
                What’s wrong with that?

                I take it you’ve never harbored revenge for wrongs done to you. {Ah, yes, as an atheist – what wrong…. so never mind.


              • Ah…perhaps you’re not aware of it, but the book of Samuel portrays King David as a genocidal maniac. Are you really going to defend this fictional Hebrew Hitler, Herr Ancients? Good luck with that.


              • You felt compelled to quote the sentiments attributed to a fictional character as gospel truth, so I felt compelled to examine said character’s other moral values. 🙂


              • Ron, it is your opinion that King David is a fictional character; It is certainly not mine.

                I have NEVER spent 2 minutes of my life online discussing the implications of what a character (that I know to be fictitious) has said.

                The atheist just cannot understand he has no standard by which to examine another’s morality (except his own opinion).
                And seriously, who cares about your or someone else’s opinion.


              • That’s right Kia, I don’t think it’s fictional.
                And what exactly are the implications to my ‘reality’ mr. know-it-all.


              • Good Grief. Talk about a discussion with a mental midget

                Ron: “Didn’t Christ say you should sell all your worldly possessions and just follow him?”
                TA: “Yes”
                Ron: “Then why aren’t you?”
                TA: “What, you’re telling me I should sell all my stuff?!
                Ron: “That would be consistent with Jesus’ message.”
                TA: “I’m not going to listen to you because So and so said “don’t listen to the ungodly””
                Ron: “Yes, but So and So also said killing babies would make you happy”
                TA: “You don’t think that if your enemies kill babies, that entitles you to kill babies too?!?!”
                Ron “Are you really going to defend a fictional biblical Hitler?!?!”
                TA: “Well if you think he’s fictional, then why are you bringing him up?!?!?!?!
                TA: “Plus, people in poor, underdeveloped nations have it better than us in some ways.” (Sure they’re starving to death and dying of curable diseases and have a life expectancy of half of what we have here in North America), but they don’t have any debt, so it’s all about perspective when you think about it.”
                P.S. “Don’t base it on just material possessions”

                Please, I encourage all people who consider themselves Christians to read through this exchange and see for yourself, the hypocrisy, hatefulness, immorality and stupidity that Christianity can bring out in people who actually believe this nonsense. I think this is one of the best examples I have read in a long time.


  2. “I set before you Life… therefore, Choose Life”-kia paraphrase

    Kia, how can one choose if you didn’t give them a choice.

    choice – an act of picking or deciding between two or more possibilities.

    The fear of the Lord (reverence) is the beginning of wisdom…


    • choice – an act of picking or deciding between two or more possibilities. ~theancients

      Armed Robber: Hand over you’re wallet, or I’ll shoot.

      Mob Boss: Pay me “protection” money, or we’ll burn down your business.

      God: Love me, or I’ll torture you forever.

      You say Rolls; I say Royce
      You say God; Give me a choice!

      ~Queen, “Bicycle Race”

      Liked by 1 person

          • How can it be a forced choice –
            Ron, I’m giving you a choice between life and death (choose life – if only for the sake of your generations).

            Can you think of a third choice here.


              • theancients,

                It appears the joke is on you, because we’re not the ones conflating an ultimatum with a consensual choice.


              • laugh away Ron.
                You and Kia and the rest of your little atheist buddies don’t seem to know what a choice is – even when given a choice – and the dictionary meaning of the word ‘choice’.

                See, you can choose to live or to die, but you cannot choose both. lol
                That’s not an ultimatum – that’s common sense. [As the saying goes “common sense is not common” – atheists prove it every time] 🙂


              • I know enough to say that when someone demands you do something with a gun to your head it’s not a freely made choice.


              • That is true.
                But God does not have a gun to your head.

                He has made you the offering of life and death but somehow you seem to think you have another choice even though you cannot come up with one – don’t worry- there’s no one else alive or dead who can come up with a third alternative.

                So it seems to me, a person of wisdom would want to choose life.

                If the atheist was an honest being he would say what his real problem is: he hates the choices he’s been given.
                That’s just too bad or is it sad for him.

                If you went to the hospital and were told you could walk out with your life or leave without it – all you atheists would quickly make a decision.
                You wouldn’t lament your “lack of choice” – what a joke.


              • theancients,

                Except you’re misrepresenting your own theology. Because Romans 9 repudiates the argument from free will:

                “It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: ‘I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.’ Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.”

                In other words, Christianity proposes a patient who is born ill and commanded to become at the discretion of an entity who’s already decided the outcome beforehand.

                As Ayn Rand wrote:

                Do not hide behind the cowardly evasion that man is born with free will, but with a “tendency” to evil. A free will saddled with a tendency is like a game with loaded dice. It forces man to struggle through the effort of playing, to bear responsibility and pay for the game, but the decision is weighted in favor of a tendency that he had no power to escape. If the tendency is of his choice, he cannot possess it at birth; if it is not of his choice, his will is not free.


              • Kia, if you have to lie to make your point, not only do you not have a point but one can expect only fools to agree with such an outright lie.

                Wasn’t it you, Kia who paraphrased from Deuteronomy – “I’ve set before you LIFE” and deliberately left out death.

                By your own irrational logic, He’s also holding LIFE to your head.
                You can now make your case for what’s wrong with life.

                The atheist have fa

                Liked by 1 person

              • According to you, by God’s decree, there are only 2 options that you can “choose” from – eternal life or eternal death. Now if that’s not the definition of an ultimatum, I don’t know what is.
                He’s holding LIFE to your head? He’s threatening you with eternal death if you don’t choose to accept his wonder offer of life.
                What if I just wanted to be left alone and didn’t want to go to either heaven or hell, but just be a lifeless mass of protoplasm? Where’s that option?


  3. Ashely, since your response doesn’t show up in my comments, I’ll address it here.

    First, Ashley can you tell me what other choice is there between life and death.
    Is there a third alternative.

    Ashley: “What if I just wanted to be left alone and didn’t want to go to either heaven or hell, but just be a lifeless mass of protoplasm? Where’s that option?”

    lifeless mass suggests death to me.

    In any event – when Scripture speaks of death it speaks/means separation from God.


    • In any event – when Scripture speaks of death it speaks/means separation from God.”~theancients,

      Isn’t omnipresence one of God’s listed attributes? If so, how do you explain the inherent contradiction of being separated from an ever-present being?


      • Ron, you will only break yourself in your futility of trying to prove the word of God wanting.

        The Spirit of God dwells inside a believer.
        If you have not the Spirit of God dwelling in you, you have another spirit.

        I thought you knew and understood scripture.
        You see, scorners mock God’s wisdom because it’s too high for them; but their pride will not allow them to admit to this. So they never profit from rebuke nor correction, as a result will one day be judged.


    • Death awaits us all theancients, there is no escaping that. The only dispute is about what happens after it. You keep saying death means separation from god. What exactly does that mean, if you don’t mind me asking? Do you believe in heaven and hell? If so, how does one get to one or the other?
      I’d also like to hear you answer Ron’s question and explain how you can be separated from an omnipresent being. Your response to him did not even attempt to address the question.


      • “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

        Ashley, the purpose of salvation is not to avoid hell, but to have a relationship with the God who created you.
        If there were no hell, Jesus still would have died for our salvation because the restoration of fellowship with God was/is the goal. It just so happens that as we restore our relationship with the Father through salvation that we gain heaven and miss hell.

        Jesus defined Eternal life for us – And this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Christ Jesus whom You have sent.
        Matter of fact, eternal life doesn’t begin in heaven, it’s something we can possess now (John 4, 5, 6).

        Many people believe Jesus died to forgive their sins, but they still don’t have a close, personal, intimate relationship with their Father God. They think that is reserved for heaven, but we are supposed to have eternal life (close, intimate, personal relationship with God our Father and Jesus Christ His Son) right now.

        Right now, you do not believe in God. You are dead (spiritually separated from Him), ie. His Holy Spirit does not dwell in you. You do not therefore have the capability to know God… your natural spirit is incapable of receiving and understanding the things of God…and because you don’t, you regard them as foolishness.

        No one ceases to exist after death – they live eternally somewhere.


        • That some wonderful tap dancing you’ve done there. We need only scroll down the page to find that you have explicitly told us that God has given us an ultimatum – do as he says, or else. We’ve been warned.
          Now all of a sudden, the purpose of salvation is not to avoid hell, but to have a “relationship” with god. You’re running your self ’round in circles so bad that you can’t even keep your own bullshit straight.

          “No one ceases to exist after death – they live eternally somewhere.”
          Pure unsubstantiated conjecture. There is no possible way you could know that. It is nothing more than a baseless assertion made by a superstitious, fearful, brainwashed ignoramus.


  4. Ron: Re: Romans 9:17
    I am exercising my free will to turn on this computer…sit down… and write a response to you. I could also use my free will to ignore your comment.

    You, Ron, will exercise your free will to read or not read this comment. You will further exercise your free will to either respond or to ignore my comment.

    I’ll be happy to hear from you if reading this comment was against your will.

    The most important stewardship you and I are given is stewardship over our hearts. We are to diligently guard against the things that we allow into our heart.
    When you consistently tell yourselves lies (lies about God, lies about His word, lies about yourself, others etc.) you’re hardening your heart.
    When your heart has become hardened/calloused do not expect all that crud to be removed in 1 day, 1 week, 1 year etc.

    Some people have taken this word from God about Pharaoh and made a paragraph out of it. They have drawn conclusions that God predetermines everything in people’s lives to the degree that free will doesn’t exist. That is not what the Lord was speaking of here.
    We can be assured that Pharaoh had already had ample opportunity to respond to God prior to the time that God began to harden his heart. Since Pharaoh had already made his choice, even to the point that he proclaimed himself to be a deity and commanded the Egyptians to worship him, God was not unrighteous in bringing him into judgment for this.
    God did not make Pharaoh the way he was, but God used, for His glory, the way Pharaoh had chosen to be. God exalted Pharaoh and gave him leadership of the nation, knowing full well how he would respond to His demands to let His people go. Since Pharaoh had already hardened his heart toward God, God was not unjust in continuing to harden his heart further until His glory was manifest completely.
    This verse is depicting God as using Pharaoh’s hardened heart for His glory, but Pharaoh had already had his chance. God simply upheld his choice and received glory through His triumph over Pharaoh and all his host.

    So, just like all you atheists who continue to reject wisdom… continue to blaspheme God…continue to mock and scorn His Wisdom thinking in the day of calamity your heart will suddenly be receptive to God’s word. Not So.
    In the day of your calamity, wisdom will have the last laugh.
    You were warned.

    (It’s easier for a person going 25mph to stop and turn around than for one going 200 mph to stop and turn around).


    • theancients,

      Taken from the source you copy/pasted without attribution (Isn’t plagiarism a sin?):

      A few months ago I was reading and studying the book of Romans. When I got to Romans chapter 9, I have to admit, I got confused by some of the stuff I was reading. Thankfully, as I continued studying, with the help of Andrew Wommack’s Living Commentary notes, I was able to take a deep breath and say to myself, oh good, that’s what those verses mean.

      LOL – she found a “just so” explanation to silence those cognitive dissonance alarm bells clanging within her head. Unfortunately, the text says what it says:

      “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.”

      There’s no way to explain that away without resorting to convoluted mental gymnastics.

      Christian theology proposes that everything was orchestrated by an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-just, all-loving, all-present, immutable and infinite being—a proposal that’s riddled with internal contradictions and inconsistent with reality itself. Because, by definition, a perfect (i.e. complete) being without defect has no needs no desires—period. Yet the scriptures inform us this god demands worship and adoration (Ex 20:3, Deut 6:13, Luke 4:8).

      That contradiction alone kills the entire proposal. Moreover, it begs belief that an all-perfect being being would willfully create imperfect and displeasing things.

      Nonetheless, the buck stops at the top. We don’t blame our appliances for having defects; we blame their manufacturers. We don’t blame our software for having bugs; we blame the programmers. We don’t blame our buildings and bridges for structural defects; we blame the contractors.

      So If your god is the sole architect and engineer of all that exists, it has no choice but to assume full responsibility for everything that transpires under its watch. Blaming its creation for design defects would be passing the buck. And threatening to punish us for failing to control an inborn impulse (i.e. to displease God) we are powerless to control is akin to punishing individuals with Tourette syndrome for failing to control their involuntary tics and spams.


      • Ron, it is obvious that my comments are in normal font, and what I cited from Andrew’s own commentary not from this person’s site that you have brought up I’ve put in italics.

        I also see you’ve exercised your free will to respond to me – or is it that the God (who doesn’t exist in your opinion) made you do it – you know- He predestinated you to do this.


        • Sorry, but placing the quoted text in italics is not a recognized substitute for providing proper citations, and failing to cite your sources is unethical—full stop! The fact that I even have to point this out to someone who claims to subscribe to a higher moral standard is disturbing, to say the least!


          • My theology? No, it’s the theology preached from evangelical pulpits across North America, and probably the rest of the world, as well. Own it!


          • What exactly are you sorry for – wrong accusation.

            Quite an outrage for one to have who engages in ‘fictional’ conversations for mere amusement.
            I guess I should apologize for not going all out to entertain you.

            Liked by 1 person

  5. “So, just like all you atheists who continue to reject wisdom… continue to blaspheme God…continue to mock and scorn His Wisdom thinking in the day of calamity your heart will suddenly be receptive to God’s word. Not So.
    In the day of your calamity, wisdom will have the last laugh.
    You were warned.”

    You were warned that if you don’t do X, there will be terrible consequences.


    Thank you for articulating that so clearly theancients.

    Liked by 1 person

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