My Journey: KIA at 15 to Answering ID with Facts, what a ride.

Even if Evolution were proven False…

… That would not serve as Evidence FOR Creationism or ID.

But thankfully, the evidence for “Evolution by Natural Selection” has not been and probably will never be proven false. In fact, it’s one of the most well established and evidenced theories of understanding Reality that we have ever have.

If Darwin lived today, he would have been given the Nobel Prize. Sadly it didn’t exist yet in his time.

Bereishith- “In the beginning…”

I didn’t always know or even want to know these things. I was, until very recently, a Christian, and an ardent and active one at that, who had as the very center of my Identity, The Person and Character of Jesus. I was a Jesus Following Disciple of Christ.

  • “I am crucified with Christ, therefore I no longer live. Jesus Christ now lives in me”
  • “For me to live is Christ, to die is great gain”
  • “Christ in You, the hope of Glory”

-Paul the Apostle

“Go back and tell others…” -Jesus to the Man of the Tombs

“When I was a Youth Minister and Inner City Missionary to Youth Gangs, I found out and taught others the fact that greater than 85% of Adult Life-long Christians accepted Christ as Saviour before the age of 15. “

“My Mission was to get them at that age and I focused on Junior High and early High School aged kids for this reason. ALONE

-KIA

My Journey into Christianity began as I suppose a lot of people’s does. I was 15 years old on my paper route in a small town in rural Kansas. But before I begin, a bit of backstory is necessary.

Good News about Bad Consequences

The week before my conversion to Christ, my sister, who had recently taken the nickname ‘Sunshine’ instead of her given name, had invited me to a Bible Study in the next town over where the leader of the group, a small gathering of young college age people at the very end, I mean the WAY very end of the Jesus Movement, had been meeting to read the Gospel of John (Good News for Modern Man version) together and sing simple songs of worship.

At the end of that night, the leader, who I believed at the time was a student at some bible college or other, gave me a copy of the Good News NT and asked me to read John’s Gospel when I got home.  Which I did. I stayed up and read the whole of the Gospel of John in one sitting till late in the night.

My 15yr old First Impression of Jesus

It spoke of a Jesus guy who told stories and made people upset with what he said, then got himself killed. The last part of the story told of his coming back to life and lifting off to heaven in a cloud of dust. I thought it was a good story and identified the Jesus as the same one who hung from  a cross supported by chains from the ceiling of our Catholic Church. I remember thinking he was still there, but not alive. As a kid, Good Friday was always a mystery to me. Looking up at Him hanging from chains, I always thought to myself “Wasn’t so good for HIM”.

But back to the Story above: The very start of My Journey.

The next week, as I was saying, I was on my paper route after school when one of the Grandmotherly type ladies I threw to asked me how I was doing, what was new with me. I told her about the Bible Study and about my reading the Gospel of John but not really understanding it all. Of course, being a Christian and wanting to help me out a bit, she invited me back around for cocoa and cookies after my route was done.

Cookies and Jesus. Hold the Hell please, I’m on a diet

Came to find out that she was the wife of the recently retired minister at the local Bible Church, Fundamentalist/Independent Baptist in flavor, just up the street from where I lived. She read me the gospel of John chapter 3 about what Jesus had done and the consequences of refusing his “Kind Offer” of Salvation, then chapter 1 about who Jesus was, God in Human form who couldn’t be refused without dire Eternal Consequences. Then, like all good Christians of this ilk do almost on sheer reflex alone, she pressed me for a decision for Christ.

  • With NO Evidence to support her claims
  • With NO other bits from Science or History
  • With NO ‘other side of the question’ to raise questions

… With “Appeals to Authority”, not just Jesus’ implied and assumed authority as God in Flesh with whom I would have Hell to pay for refusing, but also HER authority as an Elder woman of society which in MY town just wasn’t to be questioned by mere 15 year old kids…

  • … I accepted the message,
  • prayed the prayer of Faith
  • and became a Christian.

It really didn’t matter at that time what I knew to be true or false or that I had no opportunity to check the story against reality, science, history or archaeology… I had not even heard of Pascal’s stupid Wager yet (till I started using it myself in Street Evangelism and Apologetics), I was a Christian because I freely accepted the message of the Gospel and trusted Christ alone for my Salvation from Hell.

A Hell God Himself created for those who refuse Him

I didn’t even know enough then to think that it was God’s own Wrath that Jesus was saving me  from or that He supposedly Created the place called HELL that He is threatening people who don’t submit with.

“I didn’t think to ask then that if God want’s to Forgive mankind, and He doesn’t want people going to Hell…

  • Why not just Forgive those who believe without the manipulative threat of Hell being an option?
  • Why not just Forgive without Jesus having to Die and shed blood in a Human Sacrifice?
  • Why Create Hell in the first place if you don’t want people to go there?.”

“I was a Kid… I didn’t have the ability to think of these things for myself. I just “Trusted” that she was telling me the Truth ™, and that the Truth ™ actually WAS True.”

-KIA

Hell was something God didn’t want, but was there anyway because of US.

  • Yup, God Created it, but it was OUR fault.
  • He didn’t want people to go but “We send ourselves there” by refusing His Gracious Love.
  • Jesus was willing to lower himself to become ‘like’ us to save us from Hell, IF we believe in Him and do as He says from now on…

Repentance and Submission. Better illustrated in the verse I always used to describe True Christianity ™ “Repentance toward God, Faith towards Jesus Christ”.

I knew nothing, literally nothing of what I was getting into or the Truth of the claims made by either the Bible Study Leader or the Grandmother on my paper route. The rest of my Christian life was spent shoring up defenses and finding Apologetic ‘Reasons to Believe’ that The Story was in fact True, Historical, Archeologically demonstrable and really Reality based, and ONLY reading and considering authorized and acceptable sources for information.

“There and Back again… a Young Man’s Journey”

I was  a Young Earth Creationist, Avid and Rabid Anti-evolutionist and TR/KJV Christian for 34 years, 25 of which as a Minister and Missionary in various roles in the Church and serving short term missions in two different countries outside the US as well as having been an Inner City Missionary here in the Phoenix area for 5yrs before that.

I was Plain Wrong about the ‘Plain Truth’ of Scripture

I didn’t know all knowledge about what I was saying or supporting. I trusted others who had these things ‘sorted’ for me. Now I know that THEY were wrong too, most of the time knowingly wrong, in what they ‘knew’ and supported about Reality.

“Christian Apologetics is NOT about “giving answers to those who ask for the reason for the hope within you”, it’s about giving “Answers” to Believers sufficient enough to STOP them from asking further questions… whether those answers are True, Accurate, and in accordance with Reality, History, Science or even Honest.”

From Bereshith to Bull$#!t

At the end of my 34 yearJourney as a Christian, I simply had to, with the help of new information from new ‘Unofficial’ sources apparently kept from us by the Official Sources (I guess I can say, Thank God for the Internet!!), realize that I had been lied to and kept in this Fantasy Land of Unreality called Christianity. I had no other option than to admit that I was no longer “The Know It All” I once thought I was. I went into Permanent Recovery where I am now. Because of learning these things about the Fantasy I gave my life and Identity to for the last 34yrs and continuing to learn newer and more mind blowing things about the Reality I once before denied and was denied, I will forever be…

The Recovering Know It All, at your service of course.

-KIA

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156 thoughts on “My Journey: KIA at 15 to Answering ID with Facts, what a ride.

  1. The US Government ought to do a thorough investigation of Grannies everywhere. Can’t trust ’em.

    Absolutely you were lied to. As were those who lied to you and so on right back to … ”Jesus”?

    An all too familiar story, KIA.
    Thank God for the Internet indeed! Is it any wonder the ”common man” was prevented from reading the bible for around 1000 years?

    Loved the video as well.

    Excellent post.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Yes sir. The book of all books was hidden and chained to the wall. Written in languages that people couldn’t read so they couldn’t read it and see how much they had been lied to and controlled.
      Jan huss, wycliff, tyndal, Luther and anyone else who dared translate into ‘vulgar tongues’ was hunted and killed. Now that everyone can read and understand the bible in their own languages, we all know its full of bs and fantasy

      Liked by 1 person

  2. Pingback: My Journey pt 2: “Total Immersion” | The Recovering Know It All

  3. Pingback: My Journey pt 3: More Resons I’m not Christian… anymore | The Recovering Know It All

  4. the reason there is hell is because God has a holy and righteous wrath and anything unholy cannot stay in his sight because he is a holy God.

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  5. I am perfectly and totally convinced that the Word of God is true and infallible. The Word of God clearly states that there is a hell for the unrighteous. It seems that you are completely convinced that there is not hell. I am completely convinced that there is hell. I definitely don’t want to be going there when I die, but I think there is no point arguing on this point any longer because you aren’t convincing enough to me and it seems that I am not being convincing to you.

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    • I’m curious, JJA. Could you please describe what you think “hell for the unrighteous” is? And then, please tell me where and how the idea of hell originated. Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

    • That the word of God, the bible, ‘declares’ it to be so does nothing to actually ‘demonstrate’ or provide evidence that such a place exists.
      And why is it the delight and joy of Christians to threaten with eternal torture and punishment those who would rather have the latter than the former?
      And if you are unable to give evidence to the actual existence of such a place, do you really think “you’ll find out when you get there” is an effective retort?

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  6. hell for the unrighteous is “a place of mourning and gnashing of teeth” it is for all mankind who do not have their sins paid for in full by Jesus.
    Probably the first time a hell is mentioned that I know of is when people thought of an after life for the “bad” people.

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    • Please find the concept of eternal punishment and torture in hell from the ot.
      You won’t find it and neither will you find Satan as the dualistic enemy of God.

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    • But again, I ask you to do more than declare, but to demonstrate such a place actually exists. Where is it? Real places can be shown to exist without resorting to authoritative assertions and threats.

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    • JJA, you really need to do some research about hell. Your answer that it was first mentioned when people thought of an after life for the “bad” people is so weak, it makes me cringe.

      FYI, the word “hell” is nowhere to be found in the original text of scripture. So where did it come from?

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  7. Okay you try to prove or disprove without the slightest inkling of a doubt that you have a soul or that there is an after-life.

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    • Don’t have to disprove. You have the affirmative burden.
      Neither you or I have any idea what awaits us after our bodies die. Nor do we ‘know’ we have souls..non corporeal disembodied entities… That survive after.
      Again, I don’t have to prove or disprove. You are making the claim and then threatening unless I believe based on no evidence at all, just your declaration.

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    • Probably a bad choice of words, JJA.

      My point was that the Hebrew word sheol, which means the grave, a dark unknown state, the abode of the dead (not the wicked dead) was translated as “hell” in the KJV. And somewhere along the way, it became known as a place of eternal fires and punishment. Why?

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    • Job shows that Satan was an angel who had access and invite to God’s presence, and was a servant to God’s command. In the ot, Satan is God’s servant and mans adversary at God’s command to Test man

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  8. Deuteronomy 32:22King James Version (KJV)

    22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

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  9. Proverbs 15:11King James Version (KJV)

    11 Hell and destruction are before the Lord: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

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  10. Isaiah 5:14King James Version (KJV)

    14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

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    • I could get into the Hebrew word used, but suffice to say just because the English word Hell is used, does not embue the term with the nt concept. Have you heard of hermeneutics or eisegesis?

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  11. Mark 3:29King James Version (KJV)

    29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

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  12. Jude 7King James Version (KJV)

    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

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    • no… you are declaring by repeating the words of other men written. you demonstrate by Showing or Proving that such a place exists.
      you are Asserting not Demonstrating.

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  13. If I told you that the entrance to hell is through the manhole cover in Kansas city on the corner of 1st and 2nd street would you think I was telling the truth? That is what you are asking me to do.

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    • nope. i wouldn’t. i’d actually GO to that corner and verify if you are telling the truth… or even know what you are talking about.
      when you tell people something, especially the existence of ‘real’ places, you have the responsibility (ie. burden) to demonstrate or prove that what you say is actually true. otherwise, why would i believe you? why would your threats of a non existent place have any merit or weight at all?

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    • i did the same as you are now, for the same reasons, and from the same KJV bible verses for 34yrs as a christian, and 25 of those as a minister of ‘the gospel’ and yet i never bothered to investigate whether the bible i trusted and based my life on was telling the truth (ie. could be trusted to be verifiable truth)

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    • does Kansas City exist? have you been there? where is it in the US? can you point to it on a map? how would Demonstrate the existence of Kansas City? (i’ve been there by the way ๐Ÿ™‚

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    • the key here is… if you can’t Show it, you don’t Know it. you are just Declaring it or asserting it to be True based on someone elses say so.
      now, if THAT person CAN show it, then it’s all good… but the problem with ‘scripture’ is that is not the case.
      you have centuries… millenia actually.. of others Declaring what they couldn’t possibly Know to be true and then using Appeals to Authority and Threatening people with ‘eternal torture and punishment’ and sometimes… REAL physical torture, punishment and Death if they don’t believe.

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      • Excuse me but you are asking JJA to prove that hell exists are you not. And you are making the point that nothing can be proven. So I inquire of you; you seem to know about it so much why don’t you prove the opposite. Prove that hell doesn’t exist. I thank you for your time.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Sorry, you cannot prove a place does not exist. The burden of proof is not to those who disbelieve, but on those who assert such a place exists.

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    • i have no other choice that to trust my perceptions, when matched with others they give a fairly robust view of Reality. it could all be Matrix, but we wouldn’t probably know.
      but i doubt you are in the belief that Reality isn’t real… you’re just trying to sound smarter than you are. it’s a dick argument you probably picked up from CARM

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    • people of many religions have done the same for thousands of years. Yes, the RCC seemed to have perfected the concept in their time, but protestant denoms of all kinds have done the same.
      Michael Servetus anyone? salem Witch Trials anyone?

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    • by the way, Calvin had Servetus turned over to execution for disagreeing with the doctrine of the Trinity. They were both Christians and Calvin had him executed for a Doctrinal difference…Same as the RCC. the only reason we don’t see that now (like in the Salem Witch Trials) is that Christians wouldn’t be able to get away with it.

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    • the bible and christian history is Filled with Killing those who don’t believe. it’s not just the RCC and the RCC wasn’t going against ‘scripture’ they were enacting god’s vengance and punishment proscribed in the bible.

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    • “suffer not a witch to live”
      in deuteronomy and joshua, the god of the bible not only condones but Commands genocide… no chance for them to repent and be saved.
      remember ! samuel? Sammy told Saul to kill every living creature, man, woman, child and beast of the amalekites… then got mad when he didnt kill the sheep..

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    • matt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

      35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

      36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

      this is not about the members of one’s household opposing christians… it’s about Christians opposing their own families… Jesus declares war on family relations if they interfere with your devotion to Him

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    • you have no idea what i would or would not believe and supposing you do is an avoidance of your burden. especially when i am CLEARLY asking you to show me. (asking usually implies wanting to know)

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  14. The Bible should be read in context, and if there is a seeming contradiction it is because it is using metaphor or another means of communicating ideas in simple terms. The sword is a metaphor for the inevitable separation between those who believe in Christ and those who do not, even within a family. A Christian’s highest rule is to obey God. If obeying God results in separation or opposing others, then it must be so. This is acknowledged in the Bible.

    The earliest traditions of the church are unanimous in attributing the first book of the Gospel to Matthew, and it is estimated to have been written in the 50s or 60s. Because it is so similar to the other three books of the Gospel, any attacks against it hold less weight.

    Joshua and Israel took over the Promised Land under the direction of God, who was actively involved in the process. The RCC did not have this.

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    • First off, the gospel of Matthew was not ‘attributed’ to Matthew till Eusebius in the fourth century supposedly quoting a second century father papias (that original source doesn’t exist) but it wouldn’t matter what ‘tradition’ asserted authoritatively if we actually ‘knew’ who wrote the gospel of Matthew. We do not. And scholarship, eople who actually know what they are talking about, pegs it closer to the end of the first century, not the 50s or 60’s. It could not have been written by the Matthew of the gospels.

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      • Papias was a nutter this is something else he wrote:

        Judas walked about in this world a terrible example of impiety; his flesh swollen to such an extent that, where a wagon can pass with ease, he was not able to pass, no, not even the mass of his head merely. They say that his eyelids swelled to such an extent, that he could not see the light at all, while as for his eyes they were not visible even by a physician looking through an instrument, so far had they sunk from the surface…”

        Yet historians take seriously what he wrote about the Gospels. Even Eusebius was skeptical about Papias’ reliability.

        Liked by 1 person

          • When I studied Church History, modern church historians were not shy in suggesting that Eusebius was far from impartial in his Church History. The problem is that most of the early sources from the first three centuries of the Church History are no longer extant. The writings of Papias are a good example, we don’t have them directly rather we rely on accounts of them by later writers such as Papias.

            I recall reading that 50% of our knowledge of the first three centuries of the Church comes from Eusebius’ Church History written around 300 years after the supposed formation of the church.

            Knowledge of matters increases exponentially from the time of Constantine and indeed another of Eusebius’ works was a biography of Constantine. This biography was apparently so glowing that is does make historians wonder exactly how objective Eusebius was when describing earlier events where no alternative version is available.

            I am increasingly of the view that the theory of Bart Ehrman, that there was not one, but rather many diverse strands of early Christianity, seems to explain best the snippets of information we have on the early church and indeed the accounts within the New Testament itself. A lot of divergent history seems to have been deliberately erased by the Church once it gained political influence.

            Liked by 3 people

    • Second, cries of “context solves everything” are naive and just plain ignorant of the true situation of the numerous contradictions between the biblical stories both in the nt and the old.
      Not only do the gospels NOT agree with each other, but the bible contradicts known facts of reality and scientific knowledge and understanding.

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    • Third, there is NO context that can excuse genocide and commands to murder children just because of their tribal affiliation. The murder of the first born, just because they are first born? And to punish pharoe? Why not just kill him and not the children? What a dick move.
      And for the record, please do the research… The exodus did not happen. The archaeology and historical records don’t support that such an event happened at all

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  15. I love how the Lord is using us to share the Word of God! Bless you and your Work

    I have began to use mine for ministry purposes of course. It is really great to see God using people to paint many pictures of truth and in our own way.
    I am looking to become a Christian Writer, at least helping me with my teaching gifts, and inspirational spirit from God!. If you could take the time to check out some of mine as well and share them with others. I pray that it blesses you always. In Jesus name.
    Thank you so much Daniel Byzewski
    https://godheaddisciplesjourney.wordpress.com/2016/07/29/be-anchored-today-in-the-word/

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  16. Thanks for resharing this for my benefit, Kia. I appreciate that very much. None of the other links worked for me. I did see this title but did not recognize it as the first part of a numbered sequence.

    I’m glad to have the beginning of your story now…..

    Ann

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  17. Hey mike-
    I noticed you heaped some laurels upon me via the stonegodsmummysplace with such praise as
    ‘Dishonest and deluded………….’

    Hooray for you mike, your comment was first to post. But sir, it is YOU who have made YOUR deconnery the fault of believers; it is you who have written off God’s word as lewd, crude, and rude.

    It is you who have faulted scripture because you do not receive ‘satisfactory’ answers. I have watched you in times past engage with others, watching and discerning from a distance your chameleon act as you pretended the martyred one, blaming believers for their ‘unChristlike’ attitude toward you, thus giving you an excuse to run for the hills.

    Guess what mike. The Christian life is not easy. But don’t blame God, His word, or other believers for your current state of affairs. Your log and blog of deconnery documenting your disappointments changes nothing of God’s ways. He is blameless.

    As for my dishonesty, do point out the charge.

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        • The Jesus of the nt never existed anywhere but on the pages of the nt. A Jewish rabbi named Joshua, maybe, but the ‘Jesus, Son of God, our saviour and lord’ depicted in the nt? Pure fiction and religious myth.
          and do have a merry Christmas.

          Liked by 1 person

          • You might have to change that to ‘merry mas……’

            You wouldn’t want to trade on something so mentally disturbing as the man Christ Jesus………whose genealogy has been documented, verified, and whose life was witnessed by men who gave their lives because of their cerebral difficulties. lol

            Kind of hard to erase history, but whatever floats your boat. But yep, do have a merry, and blessed CHRISTmas anyway.

            Like

            • At the Ark’s house we have a Christmas Tree,
              Christmas decorations,
              Christmas Lunch
              Christmas Crackers
              Christmas Presents,
              Christmas TV

              But no Christmas Snow as it is currently around 27c.

              As the Christian version is simply a humongous fraud, all the paraphernalia having been nicked from Pagan tradition, why should I give a monkey’s uncle about any claimed religious significance?

              I might even sing a few Christmas Carols.

              Peace and good will and all that.

              Liked by 1 person

            • This is funny, CS! You wrote: whose genealogy has been documented, verified, and whose life was witnessed by men who gave their lives because of their cerebral difficulties. lol

              I know you were being sarcastic with the last part of that statement (“their cerebral difficulties”), but I also know you believe the first part, which actually makes the “lol” at the end so apropos. Truly a laugh-out-loud statement.

              Liked by 2 people

              • So then nan. Do your own research into the 40 years of your own family. Do the documents and facts betray you? Of course not. So what, 40 plus 40 plus 40 plus 40 etc, each generation verified and certified.

                There is nothing sinister about the genealogies as recorded in scripture. None. They are actually easier to believe than you believing you will live to see tomorrow. (we all run out of tomorrows)

                And God’s word will remain intact, both ready to bless, and slay all the foolishness of men (and women.) Maybe you will wake up.

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              • Of course, CS, this “conversation” could go on and on and on and essentially accomplish nothing. So let me just say this.

                I don’t see anything “sinister” in the NT (geneologies or otherwise). For me, it’s simply a collection of fabricated stories that were written with a particular goal in mind. (And apparently, the writers accomplished their purpose as many gullible individuals defend them as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.)

                As for documents on my family … it’s a poor analogy in my case as I’m adopted and have little to no information on my “family.”

                Have a nice holiday season.

                Liked by 1 person

  18. Yopu were a minister of some kind? In what church? With what formal theological training? From this post, it is evident that you lack a basic understanding of how Chirstianity works.

    “Just forgive without the threat of Hell.” Really? Is that how you were led to believe it works in your years of study? This is not the common interpretation at all.

    Liked by 1 person

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