Reposting again for IB: Deconversion is all about Me
I just want to share again with all you out there, deconverts from Christianity, still Christian or even non/never been Christians something I read this morning from a brother who seems mighty upset and troubled by former Christians like me actually telling others that they are former and why.
You see, I read this post from “Funny Man” JB and nearly lost my mind laughing at all the strawman argments and false narratives thrown out ‘in defense’ of Christianity by his own special brand of ‘offensiveness’ toward those who have the nerve to tell their stories and share what they’ve learned in reevaluating their allegiance to “The Greatest Story Ever Told”. It was a long post, mine is a bit longer, but take a gander at this dander…
**** from the Christian Comedian and Internet Apologist Extraordinaire… JB ****
When you walk away from Christianity without a good reason, you look stupid. The trouble is, there are no good reasons to walk away from Christianity. So you’re going to look stupid no matter what. Let me suggest a disguise that will make your irrationality somewhat less obvious. “Honesty”. That’s it! Be truthful. Just admit that you don’t want to believe anymore.
Do you know what will happen if you do that? The apologists will leave you alone! If you said, “I choose to believe there is no God…your Christian antagonists would vanish like a mist! There is no argument against such bold honesty. But you need to be sincere! This must be your only reason for leaving. You can’t write lists of intellectual dilemmas. You can’t complain about the “lack of evidence” for Christian doctrine. You can’t preach about how awful Christians behave. You can’t ramble about the superiority of other religions.
And most importantly…
You can’t talk about morality.
As soon as you open your mouth about right and wrong…everyone knows that you’re lying. (Well…not everyone. Other non-religious simpletons don’t have a clue.) Trust me. Everyone ELSE knows you’re lying. And…YOU know you’re lying. We all agree that liars are detestable so…be honest when you leave Christianity. It is your God-given right to turn your back on God. And I’ll hold the door for you! Go! Live life on your terms! Just quit pretending your non-religious status is anything other than self-centeredness.
It’s not of an enlightened revelation. It’s not of a profound concern for the betterment of mankind. You’ve decided to worship yourself. Admit it and you’ll earn a little respect from those of us who’ve decided differently.
**** Now a word from your sponsor… the Recovering Know it All ****
Buckle up cowboy, this is gonna be a long and bumpy ride
I agree with you JB, ultimately my decision to leave my faith of 34yrs, which I served in various roles of avocational ministry for 25 of those was All About Me.
So tell me again…
- what’s your problem with my decision?
- And why should you care?
It’s fairly and painfully obvious that you don’t really care about me or others who have deconverted… Personally. It certainly wasnt “All about YOU”. As if our decisions were somehow reflective of your decision to remain in the Faith and retain your identity as a Christian… That really would be petty, insecure, passive aggressive and insecure on YOUR part.
- So why do you care that we left at all and have the supposed temerity to actually tell others?
Are you really that insecure or sensitive in your own faith that just having other people free to tell their own personal stories and reasons for having been Christian, then not now being Christian anymore, somehow threatens your existence or identity or security of your own faith or The Faith as a whole?
So… tell me JB, exactly Who is making it “All about them”?
But aside from these questions… I have some issues with how you have framed or portrayed us and the narrative you’ve tried to lay out in your post, JB and I wanted to address some of them on a separate post… here where we might have others chime in for the discussion… not on your post where just you and “antebellum amanda” will banter back and forth interminably while the echo chamber applauds. Incidentally for readers who don’t know JB’s daughter Amanda yet, she still thinks biblical slavery would be a good thing today and has tried in the past to equate it to Parent/Child relationships. Lol
You first asserted… Ass-erted mind you… that we left Christianity for no good reasons, because “No good reasons exist” to leave Christianity. Amazing insight, but backassward. I’d probably say that having reevaluated the Evidence for and against the foundations and historicity of Christianity and the Gospel message…
oh yeah, you didn’t much care for people asking for Evidence did you. Tough toenails!…
I’d say that there wasn’t any “good reasons” to Stay in Christianity and a whole lot of Great Reasons to leave. You just have to be willing to search them out and prepared to accept… I’ll use a word I chose to counter your word “Honesty”…
REALITY! Yup, that’s it. Prepared to accept Reality
Confirmation bias is a real “Ex-wife” with a capital B. Not that I have one… ex-wife that is. 🙂
It’s not easy to continue denying the existence of Reality outside your Christian Stained Glass Windows while declaring another “Reality” you can’t demonstrate to actually exist. The Problem with your assertion that “there are no good reasons to leave Christianity” is that it’s just an assertion based on your insecurity with others coming to different conclusions based on actual Evidence or lack of Evidence that you have excluded or refused from your consideration… and them being open and… I’m going to use your word here, JB… “Honest” enough to say so. In the final analysis JB…
- Who the Sam Hell cares if you disagree?
- Who the freak are you to tell people what they should and shouldn’t say and not say to “make the apologists leave us alone”?
Really, It’s really not about YOU, JB at all… Really.
But I agree with you completely… It is all about US.
Now, that doesn’t mean we’re being somehow “selfish” by leaving a false 2000 year old middle eastern “Death Cult” based on the supposed Human Blood Sacrifice of someone who either claimed or was acclaimed well after his death to be “God in Flesh”… No, that word you would be reaching for might be better chosen…
Rationally and Reasonably Sane
…and skeptical of claims that are without Evidence… oh dear, there’s that Word you can’t stand again.
Newsflash Funnyman: A Disbelief in the Positive is NOT a Belief in the Negative
The next down the list of your assertions JB was that Deconverts from Christianity have “chosen to believe there is no god”. As if…
- 1) atheists believe THAT there is no God or make the positive claim THAT there is no God… or
- 2) leaving Christianity or not being a Christian means you are automatically an atheist.
Neither… REPEAT Neither are accurate at all.
Let me help you out a bit here JB. I know you went to college. Musta been “Clown College” or something where the Requirements were Elective because you just had to have missed out on such wonderful subjects as…
Simple Maths and
First of all, “not 1” does not equal “negative 1”. Not even Atheists put forward either the Positive Claim or hold the Positive Beliefs THAT God or gods do not exist.
For the same reason you don’t believe Thor exists outside of the Marvel Universe or Clark Kent really turns into a raven haired Kryptonian from Kansas is the same reason Atheist Disbelieve the claims of Christians or Jews or other… in their words… “god botherers”, and I’m going to use that Word you hate again JB, I just can’t help myself…
They don’t Believe or Claim to know THAT God or gods don’t exist because they are more “Honest”… see I used YOUR word there, happy?… than YOU are. They would never think of either Claiming or Believing something, like Russell’s Teapot or a god for examples, don’t exist… somewhere… anywhere in the vast universe that has yet to be fully explored. They just “Suspend Belief” until such…
… FOR the existence of Thanos from another dimension is found to be accurate, reliable and demonstrable. They just havent been convinced by people and Apologists like you or your gang that You say we’re supposed to be all hot and bothered about “leaving us alone”. They just want you and yours to do their jobs and “Put up”. You don’t have to “Shut up”, and neither do we. Its called freedom and discussion and exchange ideas. You show me yours… It’s YOUR responsibility.
But the second thing about that assertion you made is that Christians who leave Christianity have become or are automatically Atheists. Not that atheists are bad or evil or that I wouldn’t want to be associated with them… if I actually were an atheist. But the assertion that all deconverted Christians are now atheists by default is rude, demeaning and just plain insulting to millions of non-athiest yet non-christian believers of God and other Faith traditions. Try telling a Muslim or a Jew, or for that matter a Hindu or a person from any other non-abrahamic yet theistic Faith that and see what happens.
Leaving Christianity makes me exactly one thing… not a Christian anymore. That’s it!
What I or others do believe about God or gods now that we have “delivered ourselves” from “the Faith once delivered to the saints” is not by default or automatically atheist. For many it is, for some it’s not. But the choices are not only either Atheism or Christianity.
Last note on that for you JB:
if I choose to share that part of myself or my journey on my blog or in the comments sectionmof yours, it will be my decision not yours. Because… and I can’t stress this or agree with you on this enough… it’s REALLY not about you, but it Really is… All About Me.
The rest of the post was asserting that we as Deconverts are portraying ourselves as having had a “Higher or Better” Revelation or Enlightenment. And that without Christianity we can no longer speak about or judge morality. Nothing further from the Truth.
All that has changed is that we have rejected and jettisoned a “Morality” that gives the biblical God a pass on his own behaviour and moral standards that we would be guilty of gross immorality for, i.e.
- murder of innocent children,
- women and infants,
- and mass murder and genocide of the likes that would make any psycopath blush…
and jettisoned the “Moral Standards” He has supposedly given mankind,
- to rape,
- commit genocidal mass murder
as exampled in the biblical narrative… if only it’s commanded and approved of by God Himself.
Yes, we can speak on and judge morality and moral standards, and because we can we have… “mene, mene, tekel, upharsin”… measured and found the God of the Bible and biblical standards and examples of morality utterly lacking in any sense of Reality or Morality on a whole. And don’t think that it’s just Old Testament…
The Top Hits from Gentle Jesus Meek and Mild for your listening pleasure:
- Love your Enemy, but Hate your own Family?
- Bring them before me and slay them because they would not have me for a ruler?
- And many more…
Oh yeah, and that whole…
“Jesus is coming back to kill most of the populations of the world, blood to the horse’s chests, toss all those who refuse the ‘love gift sacrifice’ into eternal torment and never-ending burning flesh”.
The Evidence from the Bible, old testament and new, literally testifies of the absolute Amorality and Immorality of the God of the Bible and is ultimately Evidence that such a God or being as He could not exist in reality.
Jb, and I know you’re going to hate this with a Passion, if you have actual Evidence of such a being actually existing… It’s YOUR job and the responsibility of the Apologists that you say we need to Shut up so they will “leave us alone” to provide it. It’s not our jobs or responsibility to demonstrate or prove that He doesn’t exist.
You see JB, I don’t want the Apologists to shut up or leave me alone. I want them to do their jobs and actually provide… and here’s that Word again… Evidence that their bold and blind faith and Authority Driven Assertions are actually True.
Even if you could, which you know you cant…
I would have to believe He exist of course… But none of us could ever trust him, capricious and sadistic, malevolent and Ammoral Universal Asshole that He would be.
- Tell a man to take his only begotten son up to the top of a mountain to kill him… then “… psych, didn’t mean it… just joking with ya to see if you’d do the most vile and immoral thing you could ever imagine, child blood sacrifice, just becausemi told you too. But we’re all good now. Sorry Abe. “
- Allow an innocent baby to be born, just to kill it after making it suffer seven long agonizing and painful days, while you watch and entertain yourself with the father and mother’s groveling in the dust at your feet, praying and hoping for a wish that you already know you will not grant… all to cover up for the man who took and raped the wife of another man and had him killed… Because he had the power and Authority over the people so he could.
“Yeah but David paid by the loss of his son”
- F**k David, God killed an innocent, sinless newborn baby after making it suffer an agonizing and excruciating seven long days.
- F**k David’s loss…
- F**k the God who would do such a
- f**ked up thing to a newborn innocent baby!!
- And F**k you for actually defending that Insanity, cruelty and Immorality!!
Even if you could demonstrate that the God of the Bible actually exists in Reality, and you know you couldn’t…
I’d have to believe He exists, but None of us could ever trust him… and I’d never serve, grovel, beg, pray to, worship or follow such a maniacal, sadistic, murderous bastard again even if my punishment for not doing so was the Flames of Never-ending Hellfire and Torment.
I have too much integrity… “Honesty” and… “Morality” to do so.
It really isn’t about you JB. Believe me it isn’t.
And it isn’t even about your God, although I no longer believe He exists. You are right. It really is All About Me. I’m more moral than your God, and so are you if you really think about it and were willing to reevaluate just who and what you are serving.
The problem is JB, you put up this passive aggressive, insecure, bullshit attacking Honest people who “Honestly” have discovered Christianity to be a false religion based on lies and unsupported assertions from empty threats of Eternal Punishment and assumed positions of Authority granted from On High because its YOU who want US to Shut up and go away, not the other way around.
- You think that us having left Christianity and having the freedom and willingness to say so publicly and on Blogs is “All About you”.
- You feel deep down threatened somehow… personally… by people who disagree and have rejected what you still hold to be Truth ™ with a Capital “T”.
- It’s you who are being Selfish in wanting others to stop rejecting christianity and telling others their reasons and asking You and the Apologists for what is your job and responsibility to provide if anyone is going to be compelled to believe you… Evidence.
Why not stop telling us to Shut up or trying to change the narrative of what we are actually saying with strawman arguments and bullshit demeaning of calls for Evidence when evidence is what is required…
and actually Provide some… Evidence that is.
Or in lieu of that, why not start actualy listening to us and considering “Honestly”… your word…, more than just to post idiotic and “humorous”… (yes, I did use air quotes for a reason)… insulting posts.
Otherwise, as I said before, our decision to leave Christianity or deconvert is REALLY not about you at all. As you said in your post and I agree with completely …
It is All About Us.
Have a great and wonderful life JB.